Optimal e2 on cycle?

[Chrispy62]

I’m thinking of doing my next cycle but I’m confused on e2 management. My end of cycle blood work for my first blast showed 5620 ng/dl and e2 as 100 pg/ml. Based on pure values that e2 is high but I’ve heard that it can be more about the ratio, ideal being 20:1 or 30:1 for t/e2, but then my e2 would be considered low… going off feeling, I felt fine on that e2, I didn’t have any side effects like gyno, mood changes, oily skin, acne, nothing. I barely took any AI, maybe 6.25mg aromasin every 2 weeks.

I’m asking because I want to add in primo to my next cycle but unsure where to keep my e2 is primo will act as an ai itself

 

[BigDadd7]

100 is high

 

[Liter O' Test]

where do all these beginners hear about a magic ratio?
seriously please tell me

 

[BigDadd7]

where do all these beginners hear about a magic ratio?
seriously please tell me

I've seen it floated. Usually by guys who go by feelz instead of bloodwork. Of course, feelz won't tell you if your arteries are hardening.

 

[Chrispy62]

where do all these beginners hear about a magic ratio?
seriously please tell me

There’s lots of info online that’s split between keeping it in the normal range as dictated by health clinics. In my head it logically makes sense if you’re pushing T to Supraphysiological levels, that your e2 may feel better at higher levels. I watched a More Plates For Dates video this morning comparing T/E2 ratios with different weekly T dosages and it looks like it doesn’t increase at the same rate, and that homeostasis is 3-5% ratio. I’m not saying a ratio is right but it logically makes sense no?

 

[Cyp180]

You could measure high E2 and Test as well and have no sides. Why 3times or more Test and when E2 comes outside ref. range its high

 

[Liter O' Test]

In my head it logically makes sense if you’re pushing T to Supraphysiological levels, that your e2 may feel better at higher levels.

the body isnt a math equation. having abnormal values isnt just balanced out by something else there are so many downstream effects. its not as simple as ying and yang. im sure you had some side effect even if you werent aware of it. but it is true some are more sensitive than others

 

[fw190jd]

100 is high

this, there's no clinical data to support a testosterone to E2 ratio simply put 100 is high

 

[Chrispy62]

Fair enough, thanks everyone for their input, I will try to use primo to keep my e2 closer to the max range at 50, but will base it off sides and feelings too, then get a mid cycle blood test to confirm

 

[Catteni]

I’m thinking of doing my next cycle but I’m confused on e2 management. My end of cycle blood work for my first blast showed 5620 ng/dl and e2 as 100 pg/ml. Based on pure values that e2 is high but I’ve heard that it can be more about the ratio, ideal being 20:1 or 30:1 for t/e2, but then my e2 would be considered low… going off feeling, I felt fine on that e2, I didn’t have any side effects like gyno, mood changes, oily skin, acne, nothing. I barely took any AI, maybe 6.25mg aromasin every 2 weeks.

I’m asking because I want to add in primo to my next cycle but unsure where to keep my e2 is primo will act as an ai itself

100 is high but its about your side effect profile. Some people run higher E2 and are asymptomatic.

 

[Liter O' Test]

Fair enough, thanks everyone for their input, I will try to use primo to keep my e2 closer to the max range at 50, but will base it off sides and feelings too, then get a mid cycle blood test to confirm

you just have to keep in mind you might THINK you dont have side effects but actually do. its hard for some people to determine and be aware enough and it also comes with experience. gyno and acne indicators are extremely oldschool.

for example I had high estrogen for a year, looking back I was less confident and mfelt less empowered in my life and I was more concerned with what others thought of me, (like a woman)

I ended up in a bad relationship and put up with a lot of B.S I would not have put up with before or since. I also didnt last as long in bed (dick sensitivity increase), also my prostate grew (estrogen has a large effect on prostate size, imo much more than DHT).
also i think i gained facial water retention over months, it wasnt the obvious bloat , it seemed to accumulate the longer my estrogen was high

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

this, there's no clinical data to support a testosterone to E2 ratio simply put 100 is high

There is no clinical data at all for managing asymptomatic e2 elevation on supraphysiological T. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

AIs can exert side effects independent of their serum e2-lowering effects (e.g by affecting peripheral and localised aromatisation)

High androgenicity can also antagonise some but not necessarily all e2 effects. Just look at the guys running mast who experience low e2 symptoms despite high e2 in serum.

In my opinion, e2 should be managed based on: Non-E2 biomarkers > feels > e2 levels

Some people unironically suppress their e2 despite feeling worse for doing so, and despite hurting other biomarkers such as their lipids.

In my opinion, the people who believe in a ratio are nitwits, and the people who believe in absolute e2 levels are also nitwits.

E2 exerts many effects, many of which can be measured and/or felt. That is where your attention should go. If your BP and lipids are the same regardless of e2, and if you experience no change in symptoms regardless of e2, then get your e2 at the high end of the normal range and call it a day. High-normal is your best bet, but biomarkers and feels triumph 100% of the time.

SHBG levels, androgen receptor sensitivity, and estrogen receptor sensitivity can all have huge variations between individuals. So any target ratio or absolute value is completely meaningless without it being individualised to you yourself.

I appreciate that people like clean advice. “20:1 ratio bro” is clean advice. “In range bro” is clean advice. “Go at the high end of normal, then titrate your e2 up and down and assess biomarkers and symptoms and reassess periodically over the course of a few years to find what works for you” is not clean advice. It’s complicated, and it takes time, but it is the best advice.

 

[BabaJagga]

you just have to keep in mind you might THINK you dont have side effects but actually do. its hard for some people to determine and be aware enough and it also comes with experience. gyno and acne indicators are extremely oldschool.

for example I had high estrogen for a year, looking back I was less confident and mfelt less empowered in my life and I was more concerned with what others thought of me, (like a woman)

I ended up in a bad relationship and put up with a lot of B.S I would not have put up with before or since. I also didnt last as long in bed (dick sensitivity increase), also my prostate grew (estrogen has a large effect on prostate size, imo much more than DHT).
also i think i gained facial water retention over months, it wasnt the obvious bloat , it seemed to accumulate the longer my estrogen was high

100% agree.
not all sides, especially mental ones are "visible" from day to day. i experienced it by myself, guys around me experienced it as well.

i think for men, e2 should be somewhere in their healthy range. not above. at 59pg/ml i had some sides that were 100% due to estrogen, physical and mental as well.
with higher e2, i miss that healthy aggression in life for example and im more mellow and use my emotions more (bad).

some water retention, acne and bit oily skin are another one. gyno is the last one i guess. at that case guy has clear signal that is gotten out of control.

men simply shouldnt have estrogen levels of women. this fear of using AI is bit weird also...