Phytoestrogens in soy

[robertin75]

Hi:

Are soy products (like soy milk) considered natural aromatase inhibitors, or will they increase estrogen levels in men?

I'm confused

Thanks,
Roberto

 

[pmgamer18]

Soy makes a kind if E that takes up space in the cells blocking the bad E2 from getting in. I don't like to use Soy because of this.
Phil

 

[abs3]

soy

id stay away from it.. this place had some good research articles about soy protein:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=6E215FA0784D5D9B11E8210FAA6E0AAD.hydra?id=461709

 

[SPE]

If it blocks the bad E2 from getting in, isn't that a good thing?

 

[robertin75]

I guess what Phil meant to say is that soy will block cells that are used to keep E2 from entering our bodies.

It's just a guessing. Maybe Phil could clarify.

Roberto

 

[cpeil2]

What he means is that that molecular structure of some phytoestrogens is similar enough to that of E2 that the phtyoestrogen can fit into E2 receptor sites on cell membranes. There's some differnce of opinion whether or not this is a good thing. On the one hand, because the phytoestrogen blocks the receptor site, it inhibits E2, which is mostly a good thing. But the fear is that the phtyoestrogen also can exert its own estrogen-like effects.

 

[pmgamer18]

What he means is that that molecular structure of some phytoestrogens is similar enough to that of E2 that the phtyoestrogen can fit into E2 receptor sites on cell membranes. There's some differnce of opinion whether or not this is a good thing. On the one hand, because the phytoestrogen blocks the receptor site, it inhibits E2, which is mostly a good thing. But the fear is that the phtyoestrogen also can exert its own estrogen-like effects.

Yes and the brain can't tell the difference if your E2 is very high the brain will think it is T and tell your Testis to stop making T. The soy can fill the cell also and you could be pissing you T meds down the drain. If the cells are full with E's or E2 there is no where for the T to go.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm
http://tinyurl.com/2s292
I may not be saying it right but you get my point.
Phil

 

[prot]

Soy is the worse thing a man can eat..

worse than quiche...it has estrogenizing effects and we have enough of this shit in the environment..BTW avoid plastic drink containers and plastics as a whole as they also give off estrogen like molecules which are feminizing the whole Earth. Recent research has also found the drinking water in most of "pristine" Colorado to be estrogen laden to the point that the fish are mostly female or hermaphrodites. They are blaming the piss of so many women on hormones for birth control. Their urine enters the drinking water through sewage systems which only treat bacteria and do not remove drugs such as hormones and antibiotics.

Most of the world's amphibian species are endangered from estrogen pollution and cannot succesfully repopulate. This is happening with reptilians such as alligators in Florida...and why do you think so many young men are suffering low testosterone and erectile dysfunction? Petro chemicals in the form of plastics are destroying the environment.

 

[earthdog]

avoid plastic drink containers and plastics as a whole as they also give off estrogen like molecules which are feminizing the whole Earth. Recent research has also found the drinking water in most of "pristine" Colorado to be estrogen laden to the point that the fish are mostly female or hermaphrodites. They are blaming the piss of so many women on hormones for birth control. Their urine enters the drinking water through sewage systems which only treat bacteria and do not remove drugs such as hormones and antibiotics.

Who is "they?" Please provide references when making statements like this. I have never once read any reputable scientific research that backs up anything you have just said. Sounds like another urban legend.

 

[prot]

Why?

Who is "they?" Please provide references when making statements like this. I have never once read any reputable scientific research that backs up anything you have just said. Sounds like another urban legend.

They were the people they interviewed on TV...the people working for the state of Colorado.

Lots of people give opinions on here without somebody rudely demanding scientific evidence of things reported every day. If you are too ignorant to read then ignore my posts.

 

[earthdog]

They were the people they interviewed on TV...the people working for the state of Colorado.

Lots of people give opinions on here without somebody rudely demanding scientific evidence of things reported every day. If you are too ignorant to read then ignore my posts.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as rude. I dont think it's rude to ask someone to back up what they say in a forum dealing with science and medicine. Lots of guys post studies or links to other evidence here. The fact that none have done so on this topic leads me to believe that no such studies exist. What you have written may be true, but it needs references to make it credible.

 

[DavidZ]

Lots of people give opinions on here without somebody rudely demanding scientific evidence of things reported every day. If you are too ignorant to read then ignore my posts.

Prot, it's not rude to ask for scientific evidence for the type of claims you have made here. In fact, it's pretty much standard procedure in this group and groups like it.

I am concerned about the claims you've made here. I use plastic bottles and glasses all the time. But until I see some scientific evidence of their validity, I'm not going to take any actions in my life to address these concerns.

If you're not willing and/or able to provide such evidence maybe someone else will. Until that time I will consider these claims to be a possibilty, but not known science.

There's an old saying - believe nothing that you hear and half of what you see.

 

[prot]

Did anyone ask for scientific evidence about soy?

Several people commented on its estrogenic effects without anyone saying "prove it". I believe they were raising valid points as I have read similar things. Reading widely has exposed me to lots of scientific articles and articles on mainstream media. The one on Colorado was reported on MSNBC. I don't intend to prove anything by spending hours trying to convince people if they are not open to doing their own research or at least considering my statements in an open manner. When people made statements about soy they were not challenged to "prove it" scientifically, and its really impossible to prove a lot of things. Some things are just scientific conjecture. What the people in Colorado said was based on observations of fish gender identity. Amphibians and alligators have been studied and every report I have read or seen has concluded that plastics are causing their sexual dysfunction..I put this information out there to help people be informed but I am not wasting my time trying to convince people...they need to be aware but its there decision to investigate or not. I often provide medical references for posts dealing with health issues to help people find articles because it might be helpful to them or other readers. I posted the fish study reference on "Intense Muscle" as I knew people at that board lived in Colorado. They changed their behavior by switching to bottled water at home because they were concerned about their children.

Obviously this is a "more scientific" board and more skeptical....hardly. Every board has dogma and a pecking order. I respect people like Swale who admit they don't know everything..not people whose minds are made up before considering an idea. Not interested in an argument so this is the final post on this.

 

[DavidZ]

The one on Colorado was reported on MSNBC.

I searched the MSNBC website on "plastic bottles colorado" and the only story that seemed close was a story on recycling in California. Are you sure it was MSNBC?

I don't intend to prove anything by spending hours trying to convince people if they are not open to doing their own research or at least considering my statements in an open manner.

Unfortunately, if I believed every health claim without checking it out, I wouldn't be able to respond to them all in my daily life. One must be selective here by necessity.

When people made statements about soy they were not challenged to "prove it" scientifically, and its really impossible to prove a lot of things.

The question of phytoestrogens and soy has been out there for quite a while. Who knows why no one challenged it. Probably because it's old news.

FWIW, Dr. Shippen told me that the only thing in his book, The Testosterone Syndrome, that he would take back if he could do it again is his recommendation of taking soy supplements. Apparently, he's changed his mind about them, but I don't know any more details than that.

Amphibians and alligators have been studied and every report I have read or seen has concluded that plastics are causing their sexual dysfunction.

I've read similar claims. In fact, I think Shippen makes claims of this nature in his book.

In any event, I'm interested in learning more. And my mind is very open on this topic.

 

[cpeil2]

Here is the link, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6436617/

 

[abs3]

http://kitchendoctor.safire.com/discus-kd/messages/53/53.html?1080024784

http://www.elitefitness.com/ubb/Forum1/11-2000/037201.html

 

[prot]

I am going to break my word

and post one link.. the other links have spurred me to think its important enough. Please read down the whole way if you open it.

http://www.fibroid101.com/cause.htm

 

[SWALE]

That sure was a good article on T-Nation.

I do think we should avoid soy products.

Archer Daniel Midland--the world's number one producer of soy and soy products--funds much of the "research" making positive claims regarding soy.

We have long known that soy protein does not promote nitrogen retention, and therefore muscle growth. These deleterious hormonal effects are much newer, but must be taken into consideration.

A couple of years ago, long before I had read any of this, I happened onto a sale of a soy-based breakfast cereal line, so bought a bunch of it. I really liked it, so (as is somewhat a pattern for me) ate several bowls per day. Three days later I began retaining water, feeling weaker, and just wanted to watch soap operas all day. That swore me off soy right there.

 

[buck]

Another article that is against plastics.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7996887/

 

[greatgro]

The plastics thing is true guys.

Now I'm not saying that drinking bottled water out of a plastic bottle will turn you into a man. Or lower your T-levels. Or even significantly raise or estrogen levels. However, it is a fact that plastics have high amounts of estrogens and just like with anything - some very small amounts WILL get into your beverage. That said, I still buy bottled water in plastic containers and my estrogen levels are fine w/o any supplementation. But it is something to consider.

The Soy protein stuff is also absolutely true. Soy phytos DO exert a mild estrogen effect in males. In females, the estrogen effect is very mild compared to their much higher amounts of estrogen. In males, the "mild" effect could be significant b/c males are made to run on small amounts of estrogens.