Proviron and PCT

[palqkat]

Hello Mr. Llewellyn,
Some internet boards claim that proviron in moderate dosages (50-100mg/day) doesn't suppress HTPA and can be used during the PCT to keep the libido high and estrogen low. They back up that with some studies. Is this true? Does proviron have no suppressisve effects on HTPA and are there any real benefits to be used during the post cycle theraphy protocol?
Thanks

 

[bigbench]

bump

 

[Michael Scally MD]

This is a post on placed on another thread concerning the same topic.

Dianabol (methandione, methandrostenolone, metandienone, and a host of other names) suppresses the HPTA. The use of dianabol in the hope that it will provide HPTA normalization is misguided. More details, later, can be provided, if requested.

However, a brief note on proviron. What evidence is there that proviron lacks androgenic activity. The literature presents this by the absence of proviron to influence significantly infertility, erythropoiesis, lipids, and sex hormones. Except for the obsessive compulsive that needs to take a substance, thus replacing an AAS with adverse HPTA effects with one that does not, proviron is a worthless AAS, useful for nothing. Proviron will not support or provide any basis for the return of HPTA function.

The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

Mesterolone is useless for infertility. A year after the Varma study, 1989, the World Health Organization published a study demonstrating, "[n]o significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups." [Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility. Int J Androl 1989;12:254-64.]

In 1991, a study concludes, "Because similar semen improvement also occurred in the placebo controls, our findings cast doubt on the possible usefulness of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility." [Gerris J, Comhaire F, Hellemans P, Peeters K, Schoonjans F. Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility. Fertil Steril 1991;55:603-7.]

These confirm an earlier study from 1983. [Wang C, Chan CW, Wong KK, Yeung KK. Comparison of the effectiveness of placebo, clomiphene citrate, mesterolone, pentoxifylline, and testosterone rebound therapy for the treatment of idiopathic oligospermia. Fertil Steril 1983;40:358-65.] Treatment with the mesterolone (100 mg/day) therapy did not result in a significant increase in the mean sperm concentration or pregnancy in the partners.

Proviron is useless in promoting erythropoiesis (formation of red blood cell elements) and bone formation (a mixed effect of testosterone through the androgen receptor and estradiol receptor), both evidence of androgenic activity. Mesterolone (100 mg/d) is ineffective in raising hemoglobin and hematocrit levels significantly from baseline in individuals with hypogonadism. The study cites that Mesterolone did not increase serum testosterone (but also did not mention that there is a decrease). [Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Eur J Med Res 1997;2:293-8.]

As recent as 2003, mesterolone (100 mg/d) for 6 months administered to hypogonadal males failed to significantly raise bone mineral density (BMD). Treatment with testosterone undecanoate (160 mg/d), testosterone enanthate 250 mg (every 21 days), or a single subcutaneous implantation of 1,200 mg crystalline testosterone did result in BMD increases. [Schubert M, Bullmann C, Minnemann T, Reiners C, Krone W, Jockenhovel F. Osteoporosis in male hypogonadism: responses to androgen substitution differ among men with primary and secondary hypogonadism. Horm Res 2003;60:21-8.]

Erythropoiesis and bone formation are positive aspects of androgens useful under certain clinical conditions. AAS consistently have adverse effects on lipid profiles that are generally observed as a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). In 1999, twenty years after the study cited by MaxRep [Nikkanen V. Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone. Andrologia 1979;11:33-6.] proviron was found to adversely effect the lipid profile in hypogonadal men. The study by abstract analysis is hard to detail but an adverse effect of proviron is reported. Also, the study reports on serum testosterone levels with androgen treatments. Androgen substitution led to no significant increase of serum testosterone in the proviron group, subnormal testosterone in the testosterone undecanoate group, normal testosterone in the testosterone enanthate group, and high-normal testosterone in the crystalline testosterone group. The message is proviron did not affect the HPTA. [Jockenhovel F, Bullmann C, Schubert M, et al. Influence of various modes of androgen substitution on serum lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal men. Metabolism 1999;48:590-6.] The same author reports that proviron administration has no effect on serum FSH or testosterone. [Nikkanen V. The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH. Andrologia 1978;10:299-306.]

I have said too much already. A further review of proviron literature will not change the use of proviron as an AAS for either anabolic or androgenic effects. Bottom line: Proviron is of no use for anything.

Thank you.

 

[MaxRep]

Hello Michael,

My understanding of the question asked in the other forum is "does proviron Hurt recovery during PCT or suppress the HPTA". The same question is asked here in this forum along with the question "Does proviron Help PCT?".

To the best of my understanding, the answer is no, it does not appear to in hurt recovery or suppress the HPTA, in moderate (50-75mg/day) dosages.

Regarding your answer to the question of "Does proviron Help with PCT or ASIH". I am in complete agreement with you and the various published studies that No, it does not. I've seen no study which indicates there is any benefit. However, there is anecdotal evidence that taking proviron may psychologically help during PCT. I've read numerous posts by folks who "feel" it helps them. That alone may be enough as long as it isn't actually hurting them, which it doesn't appear to do.

Best regards,
MaxRep

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I was in complete agreement with your post on proviron. The studies cited demonstrate the lack of androgenic (by implication anabolic) effects of proviron. There are studies showing that proviron has some androgenic activity in doses 100 mg or greater, but these studies are very weak. Assuming one is doing a legitimate PCT proviron would not be harmful. As I stated, if it keeps stronger androgenic compounds from being taken it will help indirectly in this manner.

The larger problem, significantly larger is the PCT. I read posts on PCT and for the most part, they are all from a position of ignorance. It is frustrating and not worthwhile to comment since they appear to believe they are experts. Experts on being nonexperts. Please excuse the frustration, but I know that I am the sole physician with the most experience on HPTA normalization than anyone else in the world. I am the only author to publish treatment for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation. The bottom line, however, is that without laboratory confirmation of normal HPTA return one is playing Russian roulette with their nuts. So instead of their girlfriend or wife getting their nuts on breaking up or divorce they give them up to AAS.

I do agree with your posts on proviron.

Thank you.

Note: One can not take proviron forever. And if taken during PCT, and one believes that they feel good while taking proviron, there is the risk of masking an inadequate return of the HPTA due to proviron. So the bottom line, again, is why is one taking the drug?

 

[armillas23es]

Hello

I tried Proviron during PCT about 2 years ago, my PCT was the standard Clomid and Novaldex.
it looked like this:

Week 1: 100mg Clomid, 20mg Novaldex, 75mg Proviron
Week 2: 50mg Clomid , 20mg Novaldex, 50mg Proviron
Week 3: 50mg Clomid , 20mg Novaldex, 50mg Proviron
Week 4: 25mg Clomid , 10mg novaldex, 25mg Proviron
Week 5: 10mg novaldex
Then OFF for 3 months

the really cool thing is that i have 3 sets of complete bloodwork, one before starting PCT, showing following levels:

Total Testosterone:8.5 ( Its like 140 on US Scale)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 3.2
FSH: 0.6
LH: 0.8
Estrogen: 93
Prolactin: Not Detectable ( Due to Dostinex Use )

Then I have the bloodwork that i took during PCT, to make it simple:
FSH: 4.3
LH: 7.2
Total Test: 16 ( sort of 620 on your scale)
Bioavailable Test: 6.5

And finally 4 weeks after PCT:
FSH: 2.5
LH: 4.6
Estrogen: 23

What i have to report during my PCT: I didnt get any acne this time, no mood swings, sex drive was a little higher than with just nolva and clomid, but not much, ejaculation volume was high, i felt a lot more energetic, and lost very little gains. By the way on the bloodwork that i took during PCT, clomid seem really toxic to the liver with increases in liver values.

Anyway, i hope this helps, to be honest i felt a lot better when adding the proviron during PCT.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Interesting numbers but still do not support the use of proviron except as anecdotal information. Anecdotes are all over websites and provide legitimation for many to take certain drugs. But this is no way to treat or take medications, treatments, surgery, etc.

Regarding your lab work, a few corrections are necessary on your testosterone estimates. The numbers cited appear to be in the international standard of nM/L. The conversion from nM/L to ng/dL is to divide by 0.0347 or multiply by 28.843. The usual normal range for testosterone levels in serum samples is 8?35 nM/L (225?1000 ng/dL) but is determined by the lab performing the assay.

A total testosterone of 8.5 is the equivalent of ~245 ng/dL, not 140 (underestimate); a total testosterone of 16 is the equivalent of ~460 ng/dL (overestimate). In other words, had you checked to ensure the conversion was consistent; the error would have become obvious. There is no testosterone level for 4 weeks after PCT? The estrogen level is significantly less 4 weeks after PCT than prior to PCT?

Could be nothing. Could be something.

Finally, you indirectly include information that makes your case very different. Dostinex is a medication for hyperprolactinemia. This is a significant contributor to all of the symptoms of hypogonadism, etc., etc. Your medical case is anything but typical.

Thank you.

Hello

I tried Proviron during PCT about 2 years ago, my PCT was the standard Clomid and Novaldex.
it looked like this:

Week 1: 100mg Clomid, 20mg Novaldex, 75mg Proviron
Week 2: 50mg Clomid , 20mg Novaldex, 50mg Proviron
Week 3: 50mg Clomid , 20mg Novaldex, 50mg Proviron
Week 4: 25mg Clomid , 10mg novaldex, 25mg Proviron
Week 5: 10mg novaldex
Then OFF for 3 months

the really cool thing is that i have 3 sets of complete bloodwork, one before starting PCT, showing following levels:

Total Testosterone:8.5 ( Its like 140 on US Scale)
Bioavailable Testosterone: 3.2
FSH: 0.6
LH: 0.8
Estrogen: 93
Prolactin: Not Detectable ( Due to Dostinex Use )

Then I have the bloodwork that i took during PCT, to make it simple:
FSH: 4.3
LH: 7.2
Total Test: 16 ( sort of 620 on your scale)
Bioavailable Test: 6.5

And finally 4 weeks after PCT:
FSH: 2.5
LH: 4.6
Estrogen: 23

What i have to report during my PCT: I didnt get any acne this time, no mood swings, sex drive was a little higher than with just nolva and clomid, but not much, ejaculation volume was high, i felt a lot more energetic, and lost very little gains. By the way on the bloodwork that i took during PCT, clomid seem really toxic to the liver with increases in liver values.

Anyway, i hope this helps, to be honest i felt a lot better when adding the proviron during PCT.

 

[armillas23es]

I did the conversions myself, so some kind of error was expected, since im not a doctor and i did them with information i found on the net.

I dont know what my levels of prolactin were before starting dostinex, but i had low levels of prolactin many months after i finished using dostinex and PCT. My use of dostinex was to try to feel the increases in sex drive it is said it gives, not by doctor recommendation or anything.

Personally i found i felt better with the proviron, but anyway i just posted the bloodwork i had in case it could help anyone in this board, its not like I recommend the use of proviron, anyway i think its interesting to look at the bloodwork since few people have bloodwork of the use of proviron for PCT, but i also want to make clear that my PCT was CLOMID + NOVALDEX + PROVIRON.

Week 3 of PCT the proviron was used at 25mg daily, and week 4 only Nolva was used.

Total testosterone 4 weeks after pct was 12.4
Bioavailable Test: 8.4
I forgot to post the test readings before, the total estrogen is less than before the cycle, why is that, is beyond my understanding.

Thank you

 

[armillas23es]

What is your opinion on the Toremifene PCT? Its hard to find much information about it.

 

[hackskii]

Impressive thread.
Sheds some light on the guys that feel proviron helps HPTA recovery.

Thanks doc.