Question 5 x 5

[Gorillag]

Ok,

I know the No1 rule is don't chnage a thing but I have been following this for 5 weeks now and i have to say I am impressed with gains being all natural. M rpoblem is I am finding it extremely difficult to squat 3 times per week. my legs just don't seem to recover and my knees are aching.

Is it possible to only do the Monday and Friday or even cut the wednesday one back to 50-60% of what you do on the Monday and get the same results.

 

[Madcow2]

You could scale the Wednesday one back systematically. Week 1 being 20% of Monday and by Week 4 be at 30% or some such. It's a good contribution to volume during the loading phase so if you can keep it that would be preferable even if you end up working much lighter and focus on acceleration/speed.

BTW - the Wednesday squats get dropped in week 5 (a major deloading week, first week of 3x3 where weights are held constant to week 4 but volume is slashed - this being one of the volume contributors getting slashed). Unless you changed the scheduling you shouldn't be squating on Wednesdays for the remainder of the training cycle.

 

[Grizzly]

Being that the squats are the cornerstone of the program, I don't think cutting a day would be a good idea. However, using lighter weights on Wednesday shouldn't kill you.

If your knees are hurting, I maintain that it is probably a form related issue. You might try those neoprene sleeves and see if that helps.

 

[Freddy]

I agree with everything Grizz and Madcow said.

Now that your 5 weeks into it, you should drop into the 3x3/recovery phase.

Monday:
Squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Thursday:
Squats: 3x3 (60-80% of mon)
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military press:3x3
Chins: 3x3

Run this for 4-5 weeks. Start off using the same weight you were using for the last week of the 5x5 (in this case, the 5th week). Then keep adding weight until you build up to weight you've never done before.

Also, if your knees are hurting, your squat form might be bad. Are you possitive you're doing it right?

At the end of the 5x5 phase, you shouldn't feel "recovered"...the whole point is you're building up fatigue. Go into the 3x3 period now and recover.

 

[kasper2133]

Could someone please clarify how the 3x3 phase should look like.

Freddy posted this above:

Monday:
Squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Thursday:
Squats: 3x3 (60-80% of mon)
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military press:3x3
Chins: 3x3

And Madcow posted this on the fortifeid board:

Volume Phase 4 weeks - Deloading Period 1 week - Intensity Phase 4-5 weeks

M:
Squat 5x5 (3x3)
Bench 1x5 (1x3)
Row 1x5 (1x3)

W:
Squat 5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday (drop this lift)
Deadlift 5x5 (3x3)
Military 5x5 (3x3)
Pullups 5x5 (3x3)

F:
Squat 1x5 (1x3)
Bench 5x5 (3x3)
Row 5x5 (3x3)

Link to the thread:
http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&

After reading the John smith tribune thread about the eight week squat program, i also get the impression that he only means to cut the squat to 2 times a week, and leave everything else the same.

 

[Gorillag]

Yeah I'm sure my forms right its an old injury on my patellar tendons not the joint itself so can live with it using ice and brufen. The main issue is the recovery factor my legs are constantly sore and feel I have no power.

Being an old git of 36 I don't think i can handle the volume. But I will give the 3x3 a try now and cut back to twice a week then get ready for another lot of 5x5. May just need some time to adjust or maybe just not eating enough.

thanks for the advice guys I did wonder how long you were meant to try and keep the 5x5 up. Was starting to get pretty whacked out

 

[Phreezer]

Actually if you read the program closer you can do a 2X per week routine and get by.

If you want to continue doing a 3x per week workout, why don't you try doing something other than squats. Try doing Dead Lifts or Good mornings.

 

[Freddy]

Could someone please clarify how the 3x3 phase should look like.

Freddy posted this above:

Monday:
Squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Thursday:
Squats: 3x3 (60-80% of mon)
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military press:3x3
Chins: 3x3

And Madcow posted this on the fortifeid board:

Volume Phase 4 weeks - Deloading Period 1 week - Intensity Phase 4-5 weeks

M:
Squat 5x5 (3x3)
Bench 1x5 (1x3)
Row 1x5 (1x3)

W:
Squat 5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday (drop this lift)
Deadlift 5x5 (3x3)
Military 5x5 (3x3)
Pullups 5x5 (3x3)

F:
Squat 1x5 (1x3)
Bench 5x5 (3x3)
Row 5x5 (3x3)

Link to the thread:
http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=3989&st=0&p=69541&

After reading the John smith tribune thread about the eight week squat program, i also get the impression that he only means to cut the squat to 2 times a week, and leave everything else the same.

No, you drop the Friday workout off completely. I talked to JS at length about this multiple times.

 

[Madcow2]

But I will give the 3x3 a try now and cut back to twice a week then get ready for another lot of 5x5. May just need some time to adjust or maybe just not eating enough.

thanks for the advice guys I did wonder how long you were meant to try and keep the 5x5 up. Was starting to get pretty whacked out

I'm reading this and I think you may have missed something:

The 5x5 period (first 4 weeks) scales the weight up to where in weeks 3/4 you are hitting record lifts (or at least plan on ones that are going to very hard if you don't know your capacities). The initial week should start very managable. So the weights are moving up.

You can only really perform serious loading for a week or two (some people can do longer but we are talking genetic freaks at the peak of condition with massive capacity for work). That's why the core of the loading is in weeks 3/4 and the weights need to be scaled over the 4 week period.

After weeks 3/4, you absolutely must deload. No if's and's or but's. You will drive yourself into the ground otherwise. I experimented with a friend using an elongated volume phase of this very workout where we did not make records but trained up to fairly close using small incremental weight jumps to provide extra weeks. Basically, we wanted to see what our bodies' tolerances were for loading (albeit not 100% loading without the full records). We nearly died on week 8. I'm not talking "Oh I think I might be getting overtrained." I'm talking about falling asleep standing up, not being able to concentrate, all lifts going straight in the shitter, crappy mental accuity, always exhausted. It took nearly 2 full weeks out of the gym to get semi-back to normal and another 2 of light work before we could start a serious program again.

This should illustrate the importance of running the periods the way they are layed out. You should not be at week 5 in 5x5 unless you were deconditioned and started really light and needed some extra time margin to scale up.

Just reading that I kind of get the feeling that you weren't scaling the weights and you have been using the exercises and set/rep scheme to just go in and hit it hard - thus 5 weeks later this is where you stand. Maybe that isn't accurate but the whole point of the arrangement is to load and unload. Volume (sets/reps going from 5x5 to 3x3) takes care of it to a degree but intensity (%1RM) has to be scaled and actively managed. Obivously from above frequency can also be utilized to a degree but volume factors into that metric as frequency is the distribution of volume.

 

[Madcow2]

No, you drop the Friday workout off completely. I talked to JS at length about this multiple times.

I know it may be sacrelidge but I like the 3x weekly. That said, you have to ramp up the 3x3 portion conservatively and choose your weights well. There should also be a disclaimer in that post in that people are allowed to take extra days as needed in the deload or cut volume as long as the weight is moving up consistently (not to be abused). I haven't had too many people have issues with the 3x in deloading and those that have generally blew the weight selection in a big way and started way too heavy. I'm able to recover with no problem at all but then again this capacity varies widely from person to person and the lower the volume the less likely one is to have an issue. I used a Tony Urrutia's OL program once and it destroyed me even with major modification.

Here it is - this got ommitted - there's a few paragraphs of detail under the basic regimine:
"The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are so burned out that you need an extra day here and there that's okay. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week."

 

[Freddy]

I know it may be sacrelidge but I like the 3x weekly. That said, you have to ramp up the 3x3 portion conservatively and choose your weights well. There should also be a disclaimer in that post in that people are allowed to take extra days as needed in the deload or cut volume as long as the weight is moving up consistently (not to be abused). I haven't had too many people have issues with the 3x in deloading and those that have generally blew the weight selection in a big way and started way too heavy. I'm able to recover with no problem at all but then again this capacity varies widely from person to person and the lower the volume the less likely one is to have an issue. I used a Tony Urrutia's OL program once and it destroyed me even with major modification.

Here it is - this got ommitted - there's a few paragraphs of detail under the basic regimine:
"The important aspect of this phase is the weight increases. If you are so burned out that you need an extra day here and there that's okay. If you can't do all the work that's okay too. Just keep increasing the weight week to week."

Madcow, you're allowed to diverge from the program as it is, because you have your shit together and have a really good handle on training.

For the rest of us, I prefer that they stick to the program as is. That means 2 days a week for deloading. Copy that, Kasper?

As for your 8 week loading phase, Madcow...haha, yeah, thats nuts. See...few people understand what it is to be "overtrained" in the REAL sense of the word.

Unless you are noticibly weaker, you are NOT overtrained, people. If you're as strong today as you were yesterday and the month prior...you are NOT overtrained.

Madcow...with his 8 week loading phase was overtrained...lol. Don't do that.

 

[Madcow2]

As for your 8 week loading phase, Madcow...haha, yeah, thats nuts. See...few people understand what it is to be "overtrained" in the REAL sense of the word.

Madcow...with his 8 week loading phase was overtrained...lol. Don't do that.

LOL, I know man. Funny as shit that someone would do that to themselves on purpose it's it? I still laugh about it. Kind of like a carpenter smashing his thumb with a hammer just to make sure it hurts. We didn't intend it at the onset but the conversation came up and by nature I like to experiement with stuff, we were enjoying the squatting and we decided we'd just run the course and push it out until we broke down.

Both of us knew exactly what would happen but in hindsight I did underestimate the severity a bit having no experience in totally screwing myself before. Everything was fine for a while and then it was like hitting a brick wall. I was trying to fight through it at first but by the end of the week it was obvious that this wasn't just a really bad day or so and we were both totally 100% shot (and the next few weeks in recovery eliminated any residual doubt).

It's a valuable learning experience but I'll tell you that that kind of fatigue deficit totally screws your training. You don't get the majority of the gains from the program (8 weeks shot) and then you are basically on medical leave for 4 weeks. I don't know too many people who care to blow that kind of time just to prove something they and the entire world already knows.

It does make for a fun story though of course the audience that can appreciate it is a bit limited.

 

[kasper2133]

For the rest of us, I prefer that they stick to the program as is. That means 2 days a week for deloading. Copy that, Kasper?

Im not trying to change anything. Just trying to figure out the program completely, so i dont make any mistakes, and blew the whole thing. I think the initial post by JS, could be a little confusing. Thats why i think Madcows post on Fortified was excellent. Short and very easy to implement. Then i read Freddys post and just got a little confused about what to do, in the deload phase.

 

[Madcow2]

My 3 day variation calls for a lot more judgement on the part of the trainee. With the added volume it's more important to set your weights correctly, know your tolerances and be able to determine if you need extra days or have to cut volume. With all of that factored in the chances of someone blowing it are significantly increased over the 2 day protocol which removes the judgement factor (and the goal is to deload anyway so a little extra is not a major concern). Since the vast majority of people are new to the program the 3 day deload is probably not worth the risk. Once you have a good amount of experience and know how to set the weights for yourself as well as understand your tolerances it's easy to use.

Regarding the clarity. I know of no less than 5 people totally outside this board who started using this program over the past few weeks. They had access to the stickies here as well as mine at FI and a ton of others I've done. 4 of the 5 have screwed up something in the protocol due to misunderstanding something. Given that it seems to happen here too I'm guessing there is a need to make it more clear and lay it all out at the most basic of levels. I registered a Geocities site today and I'll try to put something up. I have major work and vacation coming up shortly so I have no idea on the time but I'm tired of repeatedly providing detailed info and finding it still gets screwed up. I've even been saving PMs so I can make sure it's all clear. Obviously it's redundant but there's a need at least for me because I can't handle repeating it and providing a single link that provides all the information and relevant links to the original posts here would save a lot of people time and effort.

EDIT: It's actually been seeing how badly everybody screws this up that's made me firmly believe that removing judgement from the deload and program in general is the best course of action. If I was training someone in person it would be different but I've provided tons of info in addition to everything here and it still gets messed up and occasionally pretty dramatically too. I am just finding that the dramatic change from a regular BBing program to one where you are scaling weights, use an exercise more than once per week for different set/rep protocols, and using a loading/deloading pattern is a lot for people. The ratio is too high and consistent to chaulk it up to an oddity. It needs to be made more simple, totally and absolutely clear, and have any unnecessary judgement removed from the trainee. Just thinking randomly but that's my current thinking.

 

[kasper2133]

So just to clarify things. In the 2 day deload version, you always have 3 worksets with the same weight on all exercises, and dont work to a RM like in the initial 5x5? That comes at the end of the program IF you are trying to peak? If not you start over at 5x5?

The squat on thursday with a lower weight, should be done like a CAT day?

I know. Stick to program dude, but is it really necessary to cut volume to under 1/4 for 5 weeks, to compensate for 4-5 weeks of loading? Im not an athlete, I only have the weight training to consider, so I dont have additional stress from another sport.

Madcow Great idea. For me it all (nearly )) fell in to place with the post on FI. Its difficult to get the whole thing together, with so many threads spread all over the place. Its a really simple program. Anyway, I think theres so many things you could do wrong.

 

[Freddy]

If Madcow's version worked for you, than stick with it. Don't fix what ain't broke.

 

[Gorillag]

I'm reading this and I think you may have missed something:

The 5x5 period (first 4 weeks) scales the weight up to where in weeks 3/4 you are hitting record lifts (or at least plan on ones that are going to very hard if you don't know your capacities). The initial week should start very managable. So the weights are moving up.

You can only really perform serious loading for a week or two (some people can do longer but we are talking genetic freaks at the peak of condition with massive capacity for work). That's why the core of the loading is in weeks 3/4 and the weights need to be scaled over the 4 week period.

After weeks 3/4, you absolutely must deload. No if's and's or but's. You will drive yourself into the ground otherwise. I experimented with a friend using an elongated volume phase of this very workout where we did not make records but trained up to fairly close using small incremental weight jumps to provide extra weeks. Basically, we wanted to see what our bodies' tolerances were for loading (albeit not 100% loading without the full records). We nearly died on week 8. I'm not talking "Oh I think I might be getting overtrained." I'm talking about falling asleep standing up, not being able to concentrate, all lifts going straight in the shitter, crappy mental accuity, always exhausted. It took nearly 2 full weeks out of the gym to get semi-back to normal and another 2 of light work before we could start a serious program again.

This should illustrate the importance of running the periods the way they are layed out. You should not be at week 5 in 5x5 unless you were deconditioned and started really light and needed some extra time margin to scale up.

Just reading that I kind of get the feeling that you weren't scaling the weights and you have been using the exercises and set/rep scheme to just go in and hit it hard - thus 5 weeks later this is where you stand. Maybe that isn't accurate but the whole point of the arrangement is to load and unload. Volume (sets/reps going from 5x5 to 3x3) takes care of it to a degree but intensity (%1RM) has to be scaled and actively managed. Obivously from above frequency can also be utilized to a degree but volume factors into that metric as frequency is the distribution of volume.

Yeah I started out a bit lighter than i should have as I was new to this type of programme. Basically been adding 5kg every to the squat and deadlift, 2.5kg to Rows and Bench. Probably at peak now at least on the squat and will readjust deadlift at the start of the next 4 week loading period. Will run the deloading bit from next week. have to say I picked this up from reading the JS article and its not immediately obvious when you do the deloading bit.

Anyways I have learned something new so will refine adn continue to dso as I said I really like the results at the moment.

Cheers

G

 

[Girth]

I know you mentioned that your form is perfect. But how deep are you going? I too have perfect form, but would only go to parallel, and had knee probs. Once instituting ATF squats, the knee probs dissipated quickly.

I hope that wasn't already suggested. I didn't see it.

 

[Gorillag]

No worries mate. Yeah I always go past parallel as I used to stop at it or just about there when I was a lot younger had a lot of problems with my knees because of it.

Now I go past and the same aches are not there. i did have to take 6-8 months off squating when I was younger because of not going deep enough.