questions about 5x5

[Bal]

Hey bros, I'm starting the 5x5 workout up in the stickies, but I had a couple questions. First, am I solely supposed to do these exercises, or are these just the core exercises and I'm supposed to add in auxiliary exercises like arms, calves, and abs? Also, I was thinking of doing cleans instead of squats on Wednesdays and Inclines instead of bench on fridays. Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

--Bal

 

[johnsmith182]

subbing inclines for benches should be ok, but if your going to do cleans, i suspect you mean powercleans, id sub them for a back exercise, and probably cut the reps to 5 sets of 3. dont mess with the squats. if i were you, id try the program as written, and not add in anything for the first few weeks. its a lot harder than it looks.

Hey bros, I'm starting the 5x5 workout up in the stickies, but I had a couple questions. First, am I solely supposed to do these exercises, or are these just the core exercises and I'm supposed to add in auxiliary exercises like arms, calves, and abs? Also, I was thinking of doing cleans instead of squats on Wednesdays and Inclines instead of bench on fridays. Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

--Bal

 

[Bal]

subbing inclines for benches should be ok, but if your going to do cleans, i suspect you mean powercleans, id sub them for a back exercise, and probably cut the reps to 5 sets of 3. dont mess with the squats. if i were you, id try the program as written, and not add in anything for the first few weeks. its a lot harder than it looks.

Thanks bro. Yeah, no kidding its hard... that's why I was asking cause after I'm done with those core exercises I want to go lie down in a fetal position instead of doing more auxiliary exercises on top of that.

--Bal

 

[Girth]

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Freddy]

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

The 5x5 (or 8 week squat program) is the best program in the world. Always try to use it or a variation of it for at least part of the year.

 

[johnsmith182]

when you get to a certain weight and workload, it is indeed tough to do it all on just 3 days... i think its really advantageous for beginners to do it on 3 days just to get in better shape, but at some point it is good to split it up, or at least go back and forth and switch to a split late in the cycle when the weights get really hard.

what i like to do is actually legs and back on one day, and shoulders, chest and and triceps on the other... sounds like a LOT more work on one day than another, and it is, and i believe this is good. all your training days should NOT be exactly the same stress level, you should have some hard days and some easy, and i think this accomplishes that goal.

if you do this, you can try just squatting two times a week, although i know that for some people three squat workouts work really well and they continue to add in light squats on one of the chest/shoulder days.

in general, what i would recomend if you do this is thye following

monday
heavy squat day, then something like powercleans or stiff leg deadlifts and then pullups

tuesday
heavy military press, heavy close grip bench press and then maybe something light for chest...

thursday
squats a bit lighter than monday, heavy deadlifts, heavy barbell rows, then some other back exercise, depending on what you need

friday
heavy bench press, lighter military press than tuesday or maybe DB militaries of some sort, some sort of nosebreakers or other tricep exercise.

or course some of the exercises i would really question the need to change, like the squats, militaries, benches, deadlifts, but others like the nosebreakers or pullups or closegrip benches could bd changed if you like other similar things.

i think a really good way to do this would be to do the 3 day a week program for a certain number of weeks, then switch to the 4 day split for a few weeks at the end when it really gets hard and you are having trouble getting it all done. this would let you keep going up in weights for a few extra weeks becasue of the lower frequency and less total work in each training session... then lower the weights again (but of course not totally back to the old levels) and start over again on the 3 day a week program.

a variation that i think i discussed in the post i wrote about the 5 by 5 training program and that you could use here for squats or for any other exercise you wanted to concentrate on would be to do 5 by 5 on one day then work to one max set of 5 on the second day... for instance if you really wanted to specialize on militaries you could start with militaries on tue and thur and on tue do 5 by 5 and on frir work to one top set of 3 or 5 reps... of course the same principle applies, when you first start the workouts with the top set of 3 or 5 start below your best set of that rep range, give yourself 2-3 weeks to work back to your old max and then pass it.

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Girth]

I apologize for the delay in responding. Many thanks gents. I respect all, but especially, the both of your opinions. It's good to see the effort you still put forth to explain things. I only hope people take a fraction of the time you took, to search for this information.

I only have one additional question. I like the split, as there is so much overlap with back and legs. However, why not have all your heavy lifts on one day? For example, the squat and dead are essentially the same movement. If you squat heavy on Monday, and then dead heavy on Thursday, won't you be negating the heavy-light principle?

Granted it would be easier to focus on 1 or 2 heavy lifts each day. But seeing as how nerves recover in 24-48 hours, but muscles take 4-7 days, won't you constantly be tearing the muscle down with the overlapping heavy lifts? Thus no supercompensation will occur outside of neural efficiency?

 

[johnsmith182]

complete tissue remodeling from one session of weight training takes about 6 weeks. the statement that muscles recover in 4-7 days is not really accurate... you CAN benefit from further training sessions even if you are not fully recovered from the previous one.






E=Girth]I apologize for the delay in responding. Many thanks gents. I respect all, but especially, the both of your opinions. It's good to see the effort you still put forth to explain things. I only hope people take a fraction of the time you took, to search for this information.

I only have one additional question. I like the split, as there is so much overlap with back and legs. However, why not have all your heavy lifts on one day? For example, the squat and dead are essentially the same movement. If you squat heavy on Monday, and then dead heavy on Thursday, won't you be negating the heavy-light principle?

Granted it would be easier to focus on 1 or 2 heavy lifts each day. But seeing as how nerves recover in 24-48 hours, but muscles take 4-7 days, won't you constantly be tearing the muscle down with the overlapping heavy lifts? Thus no supercompensation will occur outside of neural efficiency?[/QUOTE]

 

[Girth]

And so it shall be done.....Thanks, I'll be posting the results of the above in a few months. May they be confused for statements of praise and testimonials of the unbiased, unpaid infomercial actor.

 

[Girth]

Everything is going well so far. The biggest thing I've noticed, is that my CNS is recovered. That, I'm sure is due to switching from a HIT style ("Doggcrapp") training, as well as the lowered loads I'm using to ramp up to my previous bests. I hope this CNS recovery continues once I get up into the new personal bests.

Speaking of the ramping up, is there a recommended % of previous best, that one should start their next cycle out at? Or is it just 5-10 lb. jumps based on the weight used for the lift in question?

 

[Girth]

bump

 

[Freddy]

Everything is going well so far. The biggest thing I've noticed, is that my CNS is recovered. That, I'm sure is due to switching from a HIT style ("Doggcrapp") training, as well as the lowered loads I'm using to ramp up to my previous bests. I hope this CNS recovery continues once I get up into the new personal bests.

Speaking of the ramping up, is there a recommended % of previous best, that one should start their next cycle out at? Or is it just 5-10 lb. jumps based on the weight used for the lift in question?

5-10 based on the lift in question. Squats, deads, etc...10 pounds usually, unless it felt really heavy last week. If it did, you might only be able to go up 5 pounds.

5 pounds for bench, rows, chins, etc.

 

[johnsmith182]

girth, its hard to put a percentage to it, becasue its kind of individual to the lifter, kind of like how light to go with the wednesday workout, some need to back off more than ohters. a couple of good rules of thumb, you should be at or near PR levels around week 3 or 4, you should definately be trying a new PR by week 5. some people can do it sooner than this, kind of depends on how long you have been training.

as far as the size of the jumps and how far below PR levels you should start, the stronger you are and the longer you have been training, the lower you should start, and therefore the bigger the jumps. 10lbs for the squat is a good rule of thumb for many lifters. however ive seen lifters who need to start way lower and take way bigger jumps. as ive gotten older, ive become one of them.

id say if you are squatting 350 or less for sets of 5, then 10lb jumps will be about right, unless your weighing like 150-160lbs or something light like that and that represents a really good squat... assuming you are 200+lbs, then the 10lb jumps should be about right. if your squatting 500 or so for sets of 5, then 15-20lb jumps every week might work better. if you are handling 600-700lbs in your workouts, then you will definately need to take bigger jumps. when i was in this situation, i took jumps of 30lbs or so each workout.

if you are in your first or second year of training, you can usually start a little closer to your max, take smaller jumps, and be at a new PR earlier. the longer you have been training, and the stronger you are, the lower you need to start relative to your old max, the bigger jumps you should make, and the longer it will take you to get to new PR levels.

does that make sense?

i should say that all this is based on a high bar olympic style squat, deep and close stance and no wraps or suit, personally i dont even wear a belt when i do this workout. if you are half-squatting, or squatting powerlifting style then it might need to be significantly different.

5-10 based on the lift in question. Squats, deads, etc...10 pounds usually, unless it felt really heavy last week. If it did, you might only be able to go up 5 pounds.

5 pounds for bench, rows, chins, etc.

 

[Girth]

Sorry about the delay. I understand, and thanks for the detailed reply.

 

[Girth]

Thought I'd post my results, as they have spurred some questions I'd like to pose as well. The improvements haven't been as drastic as I'd hoped, but I feel that is due to a lowered caloric intake for fat loss purposes.

As it stands, I'm 5'10" and 195-200. %BF is anyone's guess as I can never put a number on it. Essentialy, lean enough to see veins in my quads, VERY apparent veins across my calves, and a "7" pack. My lifting stats are as follows:

Squat - 360 @ 5x5 / 410 x 1
Weighted Dips - 135 @ 5x5
Clean - 225 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 155 @ 5x5
Weighted Chins - 55 @ 5x5

I only posted these so that I can give everyone an idea of my strength level, and thus ask the following questions.

- Size is of a secondary concern. I am most concerned with strength, power, speed, and the ability to perform at my given sport(s). Would I benefit from a conversion to a more WSB style routine? I've seen a few posts about the 5x5 routine being only used sparingly, once you reach a certain strength level.

- Does the WSB lifting style carry over into sports performance as much as the 5x5. Or is WSB only for increasing your 1RM for the lift trained. Thus, making it mainly for weightlifiting events?

- Provided that you do enough sport specific training, how much does your style of weight trianing affect sport performance? Can't speed and agility be improved with plyo's and drills, more effectively than Dynamic lifiting?

 

[AnimalMass]

Good questions...

First, I don't know why you'd want to be that lean unless you were stepping on stage at a bb show. I wouldn't diet too drastically anymore if your concern is strength, power, and speed for your sports.

Second, I'd be interested in some of your other numbers as well. What weights are you using for deadlifts? What about bench press? I would not that at least in my opinion that your overhead strength is fairly behind your lower body (which is really, really rare - lol - most guys can bench press a ton and can't squat their own bodyweight.) This is an easy thing to fix though. One thing that would be nice to know is what weights you were using at the beginning of the program.

Third, I really like WSB, and it could be used for your training, EXCEPT that the changes you would need to make to the system, since you are a competitive athlete, rather than a powerlifter would basically put you in a position where you are working legs and back two days per week, and chest, shoulders, and triceps on two other days, which is exactly what John prescribed in the first place.

Also, great question about your style of weight training affecting sport performance. The fact is, regardless of sport, the way to become stronger is to squat heavy and pull heavy and to push heavy. As John has mentioned to me many times in person or over the phone, "Strong is strong" - regardless of the sport you are training for.

So where does this leave us? Well, like I said, I would like to know more about what your specific split was, and what weights you used both at the beginning and end of the program.

However, with that said, I do believe that a 4 day program would work best for you at this point and probably an increase in intensity (w/ regards to your 1rm) would do you well. i.e. - Concentrate on gut busting sets (5x5 or 3x5, etc.) on one day and then higher intensity on the other day, working up to a max set of 5, 3, and even a max single fairly occasionally. I think this is specifically important for your upper body work as it seems to be lagging behind a bit from your lower body.

Fill me in on the answer to some of those questions and we'll start hammering something out. I'll see if I can get JS to show up over here and look at this thread as well.

Matt

 

[Girth]

Thanks for the detailed reply AM. I will see if I can offer the same. If you can get JS to add something, great. But no worries, as he's offered plenty of free advice already. And I hate to be bothersome, as I know his schedule is full of "paid" advice dispensing already.

As for my bf%, I know you are right. I hesitated to even put it. But I wanted to show that the caloric restriction was most likely holding me back. Losing the bodyfat was more of a personal challenge/experiment and some discipline training.

Numbers @ the beginning of the program:
Squat - 325 @ 5x5
Weighted Dips - 105 @ 5x5
Clean - 195 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 145 @ 5x5
Weighted Chins - 40 @ 5x5

As I mentioned, not much of an improvement. But I think the caloric restriction did me in.

Deads - I don't do them as I feel that Cleans and squat negate the need for them. I may be wrong there. But based on past experience....my dead is usually about 50-75lbs. above my squat.

Bench - Also don't do these as I feel dips are a better exercise. Any time you can move your body while lifting you get better neural activation. The last time I did them, I was using 245 @ 5x5. However, that was a year ago.

I had a coach that once told me, "Arms are for show, legs are for go." That really stuck I guess. I also like the agony that is leg work. That's part of the strength discrepancy. The other part would be that I am VERY gifted in the neural recruitment of my lower body.

As for the split.....I started out just as JS had outlined in his posts above. However, the arrival of a new baby has severely limited my time. Thus, I had to cut back to the original 3 day/wk routine.

Mon - Squat 5x5, Dips 5RM, Chins 5x5, Calves
Wed - Squat 5x5 (80%), Overhead Press 5x5, JS Row 5x5, Calves
Fri - Squat 5RM, Cleans 3x5, Dips 5x5

Quid Pro Quo

 

[AnimalMass]

Well,

I think it woul dbe best to move back to the 4 day split, since you're lower body is pretty strong. Because of that, I believe your upper body is suffering after the squat work.

I have to seriously suggest doing bench presses. Limiting any muscle group to only one exercise isn't ever good. Dips are fine and good, but you need to be doing the staple of upper body compound movements. I also love cleans, but don't believe they are a substitute for deadlifts unless you are pulling alot more off the floor. (i.e. - JS's kids don't do much deadlifting, but they do tons of snatches, cleans, romanian deadlifts and straight leg deadlifts. You, on the other hand are only doing cleans once per week and rows once per week. If you switch to the 4 day split, you can do deadlifts on one lower body day and cleans on the other. (Then do JS rows on one upper body day and chins on the other.)

I really think that would help you overall. Maybe take a look at my DFST (Dual factor strength training) thread. If you'll post in that thread, I'll try and tweak it a bit for your needs.

Matt

 

[Girth]

Thanks AM. I think that last post will negate the need for me to post in your DFHT for Strength thread. I think adding the Dead and Bench will make a big difference. And as I said, making it to the gym 4 days a week is tough with the newborn in the house. I have to schedule my gym time with the wife's. Not to mention getting in the sled dragging and sport specific training. That takes my sleep down to 5-6 hours. So I'll stick with the 3 day a week for another cycle. Only this time, add in the above exercises as mentioned.

With your latest post on routines you like. having you put forth the effort of tweaking mine seems like double work. And TRUST me, it's not that I wouldn't love to hear your suggestions. I just don't want to utilize your time and effort, when I can't even utilize the program you suggest. There's nothing that pisses me off worse than when someone asks for advice, and then completely ignores it. I'm sure you get it quite often. Maybe after the next 3 day/week cycle, and when I have a baby that follows somewhat of a schedule, I'll make the switch.

Maybe I'll go hang out with some BB'rs that will get me thinking that my bench is most important. Nah, I think I'll go do some sprints. Thanks again to all!

 

[Girth]

Below is my progress over the time frame in which I've been using the 5x5. All numbers are for 5 sets of 5 reps, except cleans as noted. I'll ask my questions after.

September - 04
ATF Squat - 325 @ 5x5
Weighted Dips - 105 @ 5x5
Clean - 195 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 145 @ 5x5
Weighted Chins - 40 @ 5x5

December - 04
ATF Squat - 360 @ 5x5 / 410 x 1
Weighted Dips - 135 @ 5x5
Clean - 225 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 155 @ 5x5
Weighted Chins - 55 @ 5x5

March - 05
ATF Squat - 385 @ 5x5 / 450 x 1
Flat Bench - 265 @ 5x5
JS Row - 205 @ 5x5
Dead - 395 @ 5x5
Clean - 245 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 165 @ 5x5

The March numbers are what I project to hit in 2 weeks. Some of the exercises have been dropped and others added, due to my conversations with AM above. I still do the original 5x5 program. I've yet to switch to a 4 day program simply due to time constraints.

I put these numbers up, albeit as average as they are, as a means to show my progress. Considering the details about my history, stats, etc., that I posted above, does this look like decent progress for this stage of my lifting career? I surely can still get PLENTY stronger without adding too much more size? I only say that because I like to keep my vertical leap above the 40" mark. Any time I get over 200lbs, I lose that.