questions about 5x5

[johnsmith182]

progress

well, youve put 60 honest pounds on your squat in about 6 months, this is not too bad. in the year or two before you started this training style, how much did your squat go up? did it go up on average 10lbs a month? if you look at what you were squatting a year before you started this, im betting that it hadnt gone up at the same rate.

if you told me more about how you are cycling the weights and volume over each month or two month period, it is possible that i could offer some usefull suggestions.

 

[Girth]

With regard to the squat improvement, I would mostly agree. But keep in mind, I'm gifted in the leg department, AND those maxes you see in March are projected.

Suggestions......How could I turn down an offer like that? I'll try to sum this up as best I can without missing anything important.

- I run the 5's for 4 weeks.
- I run the 3x3 for 2-3 weeks (With first week being deloading)
- 1x3 for 1 week
- 1x1 for 1 week

Workout for 5x5 part:
Tues:
Squat - 355, 365, 375, 385
Bench - 235, 245, 255, 265
JS Row - 175, 185, 195, 205
Weighted incline situp - 3x10
One Legged Calf Raise - 3x10
Glute Ham raise - 3 sets

Thurs:
Squat (light) - 255, 260, 265, 270
Pull Ups - 20, 30, 40, 50
Overhead Press - 145, 155, 160, 165
Abs - 3x10
One Legged Calf Raise - 7x3 (dynamic)

Saturday:
Squat (Max set of 5) - 385, 395, 405, 410
Clean - (5x3) 215, 225, 235, 245
Bench (light) - 185, 190, 195, 200
Abs - 3x10
Calves - 3x10

Then I drop to 2 days a week, following the set protocol as shown above, with the following workout:

Tuesday:
Squat - Start at 5x5 max, for the 3x3, and work up 5-10 lbs each workout. Same
applies to all major lifts.
Bench
JS Row
Abs - 3x5
Calves - 3x5
glute/ham raise - 3 sets

Saturday:
Deadlift
Overhead Press
Pull-Ups
Abs - 3x5
Calves - 3x5

And of course, a thanks to you JS. I know you have many other PAYING clients, and hope that all here appreciate the fact that you are passionate enough to help people for free.

 

[Girth]

Pushing this back up for JS or anyone.

 

[johnsmith182]

what to do now.

first off, if you are under 200lbs, and doing over 400lbs for a set of 5 on the squat, assuming it is a true, deep, OL style squat... thats pretty strong. peoples notion of squat numbers gets all screwed up becasue of powerlifting, and high squats. very few, very few people can squat 500lbs all the way down with no wraps or suit. you have to be really strong to do that. make it a half squat, and you dont hae to be that strong.

sounds like youve done the program a few times, what i would do now would be to raise the training volume the next time you go through it... by doing sets across on monday and friday, instead of going up to a max set on friday. do this for 4 weeks at the beginning of your next cycle... if you can do that and end that period with similar or higher numbers than the monday workout of your present loading period, when you cut the volume you should be able to add another 20-30lbs to your squat.

other changes to your next cycle should be doing 3-4 work sets with the top weight with the rows on monday instead of just one set, and adding push presses to the saturday workout... start the push presses with 10-20 more pounds than the military presses, you can do them from behind the neck if you want, this might even be better, be sure to use LOTS of leg drive, as much as you can.

do the unloading the same.

that should get you through one more cycle with some decent gains. after that, you will have to change the workout more... probably even different rep schemes. 5 sets of 5 is a good workout, and the program you are doing is a good one, but nothing works forever. after 3-4 cycles through it, you should be ready for some different trainig for a while to rest a little, then back at it.

dont get discouraged with your gains. 10lbs gained per month on the squat is good. in 3 years, thats 360lbs gained. no one does that! maybe they do if sometime during those 3 years they add knee wraps and a powerlifting suit, or start squatting shallower, but not 360 honest pounds, unless they are starting out as a total beginner.

and last, i read some of your and AM's back and forth... hes right that going to a 4 day split for a while at this point would probably be good... but if you cant you cant, i can understand that. i think you can still make some good gains on 3 days. also about deadlifting... you dont have deadlift in the loading phase of the workout you listed... it aint gonna kill you not to do it, but adding deadlift or stiff legged deadlift on wednesday would probably help you, either just add it or even better do it in place of the pullups and put the pullups on saturday... that would be ideal but then you would have to drop the light bench on saturday or with pullups and push presses added it would be too much. personally id be in favor of that, no benches on sat, but add push presses and pullups, and do the stiff legged deads or the deadlifts on thur.

 

[Girth]

"Ask and ye shall receive"...SIR, THANK YOU. You have given me more than ample avenues to pursue.

I was most interested and/or surprised to hear your opinions on my strength level however (ok, there is a bit of pride in there too). The 400 for 5 is a full squat (hams touch calves). I switched to full squats when starting this program those 6 months ago. That's what originally knocked my starting numbers down. I also switched as a way of avoiding the pain I was getting from parallel squats, after reading a post I think Freddy made about the correlation. I don't know that I can get 500x1 for some time. I think I may need to switch to a WSB style program for such a feat. My last 1RM was 435, with only a belt.

I'll stop here, as it's time for innovation and implementation. I wish I could offer more than a thanks. Just know that I appreciate greatly what you and the boys here at Meso have done for me.

 

[Madcow2]

A mind that is eager to learn + a heart that is eager to apply = success

Basic training info can be found if one looks hard enough but those ingredients and the results are yours to take pride in.

 

[Girth]

I made all my projected wieghts, and am finishing up on my 3x3 weeks. You can see what they were a couple posts back. I only say this, as a testimonial to the results of a good program, for those of you floundering or skeptical.

I think I'll be migrating to a 4 day program now. I've swithed to early AM training in order to make time for the family as well. I have 3 options currently in mind.....I've gotten so much help, I almost have too many avenues to pursue.

1. DFST or DFHT
2. the 4 day program mentioned by JS earlier in this thread
3. Sticking with the 3 day full body split, but switching the exercise and rep scheme each day, for the same bodypart. e.g. Squat - 1RM, Dead - 5x5, Box Squat - dynamic 8x2

It's the last one that has me intrigued. I've seen a post by Freddy and AM mentioning this. Nothing more was said about it. It seems to be a good way to modify the loading and stimulus across the week. Much like that of WSB.

Along those same lines....I notice that in the 5x5 and DFST programs, there is little mention of exercise changes. WSB is all about that. Is the changing of ME exercises only a powerlifing strategy? Are such changes not necessary for someone like me whose interested in sport performance rather than 1RM results?

 

[Girth]

bumping this up for the edited post.

 

[Dschingis]

#3

I tried it a few months ago, after i read the same thread. I did it with 5x5 mondays, different routine and 3-4x15 at wednesdays, and another different routine at fridays with 3-4x10. For unloading i used 3x3, 2x15, 2x10. It worked for me and kicked the boredom away (one of my badest problems with weightlifting). Bill Starr presented an identical program, where he suggested 5x10, 5x3, 5x5 with his big three.

 

[Girth]

Thanks for the input. I just implemented it yesterday. I was going to go with AM's program, but for right now, 3 days a week will still give me time for other forms of training, beyond just lifiting.

 

[bigtrevm]

Worth the effort

Great posts from you guys,

The effort you guys have put in is great. It really teaches us less expierienced guys an awful lot. I've leared alot more on this site in a few months than I have in reading the magazines for years!!!

Respect to you all!!!

bigtrevm