OK I am week 8 into shooting test cyp sx a week at 50mgs. sometimes a little more as it is very hard to measure it precisely in a 3cc syringe. I feel great, libido back and no ED issues. Got my labs back and everything looks good, test is 700. However estradiol is up to 44. I meet with the endo next week. Is this something to be concerned with? I figured he will start me on anastrozole but last time I took it, it raises my BP. Are there any other options?
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Recent labs and estradiol
- Thread starter toolman
- Start date
It doesnt sound like a concern if you feel ok.
What is the cited lab range for E2? A value of 44 doesnt sound above the top of the range to me - that's more like 50. Are you getting any E2 sides?
If/when E2 goes too high or you get E2 sides, you can try lowering your dose. You dont have to be in the 700s all the time. Come down a couple of notches on the syringe.
Get a 1.0 ml or 0.5 ml disposable insulin syringe with a 1/2-inch needle.
Rotate injection sites.
What is the cited lab range for E2? A value of 44 doesnt sound above the top of the range to me - that's more like 50. Are you getting any E2 sides?
If/when E2 goes too high or you get E2 sides, you can try lowering your dose. You dont have to be in the 700s all the time. Come down a couple of notches on the syringe.
Get a 1.0 ml or 0.5 ml disposable insulin syringe with a 1/2-inch needle.
Rotate injection sites.
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Top of normal range is 39. No noticeable sides except the last couple of times mid session with my wife I started to go limp. Really sucked.
Problem with the insuln syringe is the 1/2 needle. How can you shoot IM with that short a pin?
Lower your dose and/or skip a dose or two and come back to it at a lower dose.
I've been doing it for two years with no problem. Deltoids and anterior thigh (lats) - there's 4 locations you can use to rotate the injection. My last labs had TT at 710 and E2 at 23 (< 39 - same range as yours)...and I'm estrogen sensitive (SHBG is 28).
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I assume that's 44pg/ml?
If so that's an tT:E-2 ratio of 15:1 "Normal" ratio 10-20, damn TM your "average" mate!
If so that's an tT:E-2 ratio of 15:1 "Normal" ratio 10-20, damn TM your "average" mate!
low - low - LOW dose Letro is fire... if u can use it right there is no other that even comes close. $ to $
we need sum Estrogen to maintain Immune and Joint Health. Doc may no a more exact ratio... lower it not shut it down 4 max gains.
Actually nobody knows how low of an E-2 is acceptable or "normal" for males. The E-2 trough has never been studied exclusively, although peak levels have to some extent, in females and males with congenital disease, but obviously cyclist are in a different category altogether! More specifically their high testosterone levels could "counterbalance" the effects of low E-2 in those studies, minimizing their applicability in male cohorts. Nevertheles, I've evaluated BB and lifters with a E-2 of ZIP, ZERO, ZILTCH "never felt better DOC, I'm all male now", lol! That being said E-2 does have KNOWN effects primarily on lipids and bone metabolism, I believe (no data) it should be kept above 10pg/ml and hover between 10-20pg/ml. Afterall is not like E-2 is the cyclist best friend since it increases SHBG, diminishes LH secretion and decreases steroidogenesis. Moderation mate!
What dose and frequency do you use?
corageon
Banned
Actually nobody knows how low of an E-2 is acceptable or "normal" for males. The E-2 trough has never been studied exclusively, although peak levels have to some extent, in females and males with congenital disease, but obviously cyclist are in a different category altogether! More specifically their high testosterone levels could "counterbalance" the effects of low E-2 in those studies, minimizing their applicability in male cohorts. Nevertheles, I've evaluated BB and lifters with a E-2 of ZIP, ZERO, ZILTCH "never felt better DOC, I'm all male now", lol! That being said E-2 does have KNOWN effects primarily on lipids and bone metabolism, I believe (no data) it should be kept above 10pg/ml and hover between 10-20pg/ml. Afterall is not like E-2 is the cyclist best friend since it increases SHBG, diminishes LH secretion and decreases steroidogenesis. Moderation mate!
I agree, people do complain a lot of "low e-2 sides", but who knows what these sides really are coming from. Low estrogen is an ideal state on many levels, as long as you are not suffering from bone loss, however there are other hormones involved and techniques that can be used to counter that.
How PROFOUND for you to agree with me Contagion, more than ONE YEAR later, lol!
Oh but do enlighten Meso members of those "other techniques or hormones that can be used to counter that"? (Exclusive of TT which I mentioned in my post earlier)
Oh but do enlighten Meso members of those "other techniques or hormones that can be used to counter that"? (Exclusive of TT which I mentioned in my post earlier)
corageon
Banned
DHT, Osthole, Turmeric, Cissus, increased protein intake, proper ratio of Calcium,Vitamin D,Magnesium, Boswellia, IGF-1, TGF, Deer Antler, Black Ant extracts, Icariin. Cardio, Calaethenics, *phytoandrogens/estrogens*.
Lol...looks like the man that is too busy running his empire of hundreds of thousand blog followers is trolling my posts. How cute, toughy smurf wants to learn more about me.
corageon
Banned
I figured you went into the trouble to look up all my shit, I had a few minutes to gravedig one of your threads, which just so happens to be such an easy topic to respond to, and one of my favorites.
Absolute BULLSHIT!!! Contagion.
Can you post even ONE citation from a peer reviewed journal that supports such GARBAGE,
How about an article which verifies the use of those "therapies" as a MEASURABLE means of altering E-2 levels, NOT!
No clown I'm NOT referring to a theoretical change from the use of DHT for instance (because of the differing DHT/E-2 SHBG affinities) but one that is demonstrable clinically, based on lab data.
Hey I've also heard; bulls ear wax, albino rat tails, frog urine, fingernail clippings of the "bull weasel beaver" (at least 6 months old) and "anal verge" witches pubic hair will have similar effects on E-2!
What utter nonsense!
Can you post even ONE citation from a peer reviewed journal that supports such GARBAGE,
How about an article which verifies the use of those "therapies" as a MEASURABLE means of altering E-2 levels, NOT!
No clown I'm NOT referring to a theoretical change from the use of DHT for instance (because of the differing DHT/E-2 SHBG affinities) but one that is demonstrable clinically, based on lab data.
Hey I've also heard; bulls ear wax, albino rat tails, frog urine, fingernail clippings of the "bull weasel beaver" (at least 6 months old) and "anal verge" witches pubic hair will have similar effects on E-2!
What utter nonsense!
corageon
Banned
I should have been more specific, those can be used to counter the bone loss associated with low E-2. Not to decrease E-2 levels, but yes, *some* of these can be used for that too!
Starting with Osthole.
Osthole stimulates osteoblast differentiati... [J Bone Miner Res. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
Osthole stimulates osteoblast differentiation and bone formation by activation of beta-catenin-BMP signaling.
Tang DZ1, Hou W, Zhou Q, Zhang M, Holz J, Sheu TJ, Li TF, Cheng SD, Shi Q, Harris SE, Chen D, Wang YJ.
Author information
Abstract
Osteoporosis is defined as reduced bone mineral density with a high risk of fragile fracture. Current available treatment regimens include antiresorptive drugs such as estrogen receptor analogues and bisphosphates and anabolic agents such as parathyroid hormone (PTH). However, neither option is completely satisfactory because of adverse effects. It is thus highly desirable to identify novel anabolic agents to improve future osteoporosis treatment. Osthole, a coumarin-like derivative extracted from Chinese herbs, has been shown to stimulate osteoblast proliferation and differentiation, but its effect on bone formation in vivo and underlying mechanism remain unknown. In this study, we found that local injection of Osthole significantly increased new bone formation on the surface of mouse calvaria. Ovariectomy caused evident bone loss in rats, whereas Osthole largely prevented such loss, as shown by improved bone microarchitecture, histomorphometric parameters, and biomechanical properties. In vitro studies demonstrated that Osthole activated Wnt/beta-catenin signaling, increased Bmp2 expression, and stimulated osteoblast differentiation. Targeted deletion of the beta-catenin and Bmp2 genes abolished the stimulatory effect of Osthole on osteoblast differentiation. Since deletion of the Bmp2 gene did not affect Osthole-induced beta-catenin expression and the deletion of the beta-catenin gene inhibited Osthole-regulated Bmp2 expression in osteoblasts, we propose that Osthole acts through beta-catenin-BMP signaling to promote osteoblast differentiation. Our findings demonstrate that Osthole could be a potential anabolic agent to stimulate bone formation and prevent estrogen deficiency-induced bone loss.
And another --> Osthole-mediated cell differentiation t... [J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
Next...Icariin.
Icariin protects against bone loss induced by oestrogen deficiency and activates oestrogen receptor-dependent osteoblastic functions in UMR 106 cells.
Icariin protects against bone loss induced by oestrogen deficiency and activates oestrogen receptor-dependent osteoblastic functions in UMR 106 cells
Cell Biochem Biophys. 2013 Sep;67(1):189-97. doi: 10.1007/s12013-013-9533-8.
Icariin protects against glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis in vitro and prevents glucocorticoid-induced osteocyte apoptosis in vivo.
Feng R1, Feng L, Yuan Z, Wang D, Wang F, Tan B, Han S, Li T, Li D, Han Y.
Author information
Abstract
Icariin is the major active ingredient in Herba epimedii which is a commonly used Chinese herbal medicine for the treatment of osteoporosis. The present study aims to evaluate the osteoprotective effect of Icariin in glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis in vivo and investigate the effect of Icariin on glucocorticoid-induced osteocyte apoptosis in vitro. A total of 48 female Sprague-Dawley rats were used. Glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis was induced by daily injections of dexamethasone (0.1 mg/kg, daily, s.c.) for 60 days, whereas sham animals were injected daily with vehicle. At the end of the osteoporosis development period, osteoporotic rats were randomized to receive: vehicle (n = 8), Icariin (5,125 mg/kg, i.g.; n = 8), or alendronate (0.03 mg/kg, s.c.; n = 8) for 12 weeks. Sham animals were treated with vehicle for 12 weeks. At the beginning and at the end of treatments, animals were examined for bone mineral density. Serum bone-alkaline phosphatase and carboxy-terminal collagen cross links were measured. Primary osteocytes were isolated, and apoptosis was determined by trypan-blue assay. Interaction between Icariin and estrogen receptor and prosurvival signaling pathways activated by Icariin were also investigated. Icariin showed a comparable efficacy with alendronate in increasing bone mass. Icariin significantly increased bone-alkaline phosphatase (bone formation marker) and reduced carboxy-terminal collagen cross links (bone resorption marker). In vitro studies demonstrated that Icariin significantly prevented GC-induced apoptosis in osteocytes by activating ERK signaling via estrogen receptor. Our results suggest that Icariin might exert osteoprotective effect by maintaining osteocyte viability, thereby, regulating bone remodeling. Furthermore, our study provides preclinical evidence for the efficacy of Icariin for management of Glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis.
Yes you are a clown because your citing a LIMITED singular study on mice as directed therapy to treat E-2 mediated osteoporosis and that's BULLSHIT FOOL.
This ain't my first rodeo fool so locate a HUMAN IN-VIVO study or be done with it, and admit you, your suggestions, and the crap your attempting to pawn off on unsuspecting Meso mates are ALL FULL OF SHIT!
This ain't my first rodeo fool so locate a HUMAN IN-VIVO study or be done with it, and admit you, your suggestions, and the crap your attempting to pawn off on unsuspecting Meso mates are ALL FULL OF SHIT!
It was no trouble looking anything up, I didn't have to. I asked a former employee to do it. Thank you for your response to the thread but as it has been pointed out, your response was based on BS science and useless.
Don't worry De'Russo...you aren't paranoid...we all do think you are an idiot.
corageon
Banned
Oh the irony, you people are still going on about this? It's the concept of the study that matters, I believe there was one human study on Osthole, and a couple on Icariin. I'll dig them up in a moment. Toolman, you are obviously detail-oriented, and you have done a good job trying to address each of my statements, but you are completely unaware of what is going to happen in the next few months. You are going to see an 180 degree turn on this forum, as well as others. The results of which are going to astound you, go ahead, laugh while you can.
You'll need it to be able to push through all the confusion and remedy yourself from all the questions that will be racing through your mind.
You'll need it to be able to push through all the confusion and remedy yourself from all the questions that will be racing through your mind.
