SARMs S4 and PCT?

[bigpapabuff]

Very interested in trying this. I have read some good information about dosing and cycle length, but I am not sure about PCT. Do you need to run a full PCT if you do a 2 month cycle of this stuff? Does anyone have some experience with sarms s4 at all? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[newbie23]

i dont have any experience-but from what i hear no pct is needed and its great for joints.

 

[toothache]

There's a few SARMs logs on other boards. It doesn't look like you need pct.

 

[freakinhuge]

yea i think that is one of the main selling points of sarms, no pct needed.

 

[tballz]

What I like about it is that it seems to help with joint pains.

 

[Millard]

yea i think that is one of the main selling points of sarms, no pct needed.

But is that conclusive? Absence of any endogenous androgen suppression?

 

[dfein]

I heard it made some peoples vision turn yellow permanently. Be careful.

 

[tballz]

I heard it made some peoples vision turn yellow permanently. Be careful.

Of all the logs I have read the vision goes back to normal after about 5-7 days of last dosage.

 

[Conciliator]

But is that conclusive? Absence of any endogenous androgen suppression?

No, it's not conclusive. No suppression was found in the Ostarine trials that used only 3mg total per day. However, the animal research on S-4 found HPTA suppression at higher doses. Most bodybuilders are taking much higher doses (50-150mg/day).

Also, if you use no PCT, endogenous test will take much longer to recover. For example, http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/2/373 (this study) found that after 21 weeks of suppression at 250mg/wk it took a good 4-5 months for recovery. Unless you're planning on using a low dose of S-4 for 4-5+ months, it doesn't sound like a very smart idea to skip PCT, even with S-4.

 

[Conciliator]

I heard it made some peoples vision turn yellow permanently. Be careful.

I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4. Chavo, who's selling it over on Pro Muscle, was recommending a dose of 1-3 mg/kg/day "based on current clinical trials," so that's what guys have started using it at. I knew he was full of shit, so I pressed him on what those clinical trials were. He had nothing to say, because they don't exist. The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trials used up to 3mg TOTAL per day, not per kg of bodyweight per day. That's a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it does not understand the research.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238 on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day (see results in the levator ani http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238&rendertype=figure&id=F5). When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day. That may sound low, but it's still 13 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials. You sure as hell don't need hundreds of mgs per day.

 

[Millard]

No, it's not conclusive. No suppression was found in the Ostarine trials that used only 3mg total per day. However, the animal research on S-4 found HPTA suppression at higher doses. Most bodybuilders are taking much higher doses (50-150mg/day).

Also, if you use no PCT, endogenous test will take much longer to recover. For example, http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/2/373 (this study) found that after 21 weeks of suppression at 250mg/wk it took a good 4-5 months for recovery. Unless you're planning on using a low dose of S-4 for 4-5+ months, it doesn't sound like a very smart idea to skip PCT, even with S-4.

Thanks! This was what I was afraid of happening.

 

[toothache]

I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4. Chavo, who's selling it over on Pro Muscle, was recommending a dose of 1-3 mg/kg/day "based on current clinical trials," so that's what guys have started using it at. I knew he was full of shit, so I pressed him on what those clinical trials were. He had nothing to say, because they don't exist. The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trials used up to 3mg TOTAL per day, not per kg of bodyweight per day. That's a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it does not understand the research.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238 on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day (see results in the levator ani http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238&rendertype=figure&id=F5). When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day. That may sound low, but it's still 13 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials. You sure as hell don't need hundreds of mgs per day.

Awesome read...very interesting. Everybody that's using it is dosing it at 50mg-150mg which is obviously just a waste money. Good to know

 

[lifterjaydawg]

some very good information, thanks, been looking for more sarms s4 info.

 

[cvictorg]

I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4. Chavo, who's selling it over on Pro Muscle, was recommending a dose of 1-3 mg/kg/day "based on current clinical trials," so that's what guys have started using it at. I knew he was full of shit, so I pressed him on what those clinical trials were. He had nothing to say, because they don't exist. The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trials used up to 3mg TOTAL per day, not per kg of bodyweight per day. That's a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it does not understand the research.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238 on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day (see results in the levator ani http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238&rendertype=figure&id=F5). When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day. That may sound low, but it's still 13 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials. You sure as hell don't need hundreds of mgs per day.

Pharmacokinetics of S-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide in rats, a non-steroidal selective androgen receptor modulator

Analysis of variance showed no significant difference in the CL of S-4 at doses of 0.5, 1 and 10 mg kg?1 ( p>0.05). Previous in vivo studies in the present authors' laboratory showed that the dose required to restore the levator ani muscle weight in castrated animals, an indicator of anabolic activity, compared with that of intact animals was less than 4 mg kg?1 day?1 (Yin et al. 2003). Thus, S-4 demonstrates linear pharmacokinetics within the dose range needed to exert maximal pharmacological effects.

The lack of parent drug in the urine suggests that S-4 is extensively metabolized. Assuming a hepatic blood flow of 13.8 ml min ?1 in the rat (Davies and Morris 1993), the hepatic extraction ratio of S-4 would be less than 0.05. Based on this hepatic extraction ratio, a greater than 95% bioavailability (i.e. less than 5% of the drug would be removed by first-pass metabolism) is predicted. The present results confirmed this prediction, as S-4 was completely bioavailable following pharmacologically relevant doses (i.e. doses ? 10 mg kg?1).

The CL of S-4 at a dose of 0.5 mg kg?1 (1.92 ml min?1 kg?1) was significantly ( p<0.001) greater than that observed for the 30 mg kg?1 dose (1.00 ml min?1 kg?1). These data suggest that saturation of the drug-metabolizing enzymes might be occurring at this higher dose. Therefore, one would expect to see further suppression of CL following doses greater than 30 mg kg?1. However, due to the potency of S-4, the authors do not anticipate the need for such high doses during clinical use. Forthcoming data from the present authors' laboratory will provide needed information about the hepatic metabolism and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in this and other species.

The pharmacological activity and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in rats suggest that this compound has the properties of an ideal SARM as defined by Negro-Vilar (1999). It is rapidly absorbed following p.o. doses (tmax, 48?84 min), and it exerts tissue-specific anabolic effects in vivo, with anabolic effects in muscle and bone but lesser effects in the prostate and seminal vesicles (Kearbey et al. 2003, Yin et al. 2003). These properties coupled with forthcoming reports from the present authors' laboratory about the pharmacological effects of S-4 in other pertinent animal models and its pharmacokinetics and metabolism in dogs and humans, favour the continued development of S-4 as an orally bioavailable non-steroidal SARM.

Pharmacokinetics of S-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro- 3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide in rats, a non-steroidal selective androgen receptor modulator; Xenobiotica - 34(3)ages 273-280 - Informa Healthcare

Oral bioavailability was also dose dependent, with the lower doses showing complete oral bioavailability. The half-life of S-4 over the dose range tested was between 2.6 and 5.3h.

So at a dose of 4mg/kg/day (using the dose conversion of .162 for rats) you're looking at a dose of appx 65mgs/day for a 100kg man - still much less than the 100+mgs/day some here are using

BUT - at a dose of .5mgs/kg/day - you're only looking at a dose of appx 8mgs for a 100kg human!

 

[MesomorphosisGuy]

Obviously, not all SARMs are so mild on endogenous hormones.

For example, BMS-564,929, the strongest SARMs that has been synthetized so far, is about 9-times stronger in this regard than testosterone.

 

[solo47]

Thanks, Conciliator. Sounds like SARMS are a bad choice for PCT or off-cycle, as was suggested in another thread.

Solo

 

[MesomorphosisGuy]

Thanks, Conciliator. Sounds like SARMS are a bad choice for PCT or off-cycle, as was suggested in another thread.

Solo

Why, for Goodness sake???

 

[Conciliator]

Why, for Goodness sake???

I think he means that it's a bad choice to take S-4 as though it were PCT. Adding a low dose to standard PCT should be beneficial.

 

[dfein]

I read somewhere that the UG S4 is tainted with methanol which is toxic to humans and might be causing the yellow vision/bad night vision.

 

[solo47]

Why, for Goodness sake???

At high bodybuilding doses, it likely contributes to HPTA shut down. In small doses, not.

Solo