Shelf Life For AAS Raws

[hijoshiki]

I've got Tren Vials going on 6 years old that I tried 4 years ago and It definitely gave all the side's it used to.
Oxidation is present in some that are only 6 months old though, I had to run a heap of tests that relate to the topic.

GSO and MCT with their nature will 100% go rancid, the best before is roughly 2 year's from manufacturing.

BB is a preservative so the shelf life is extended further, for how long I'm not sure.

The safe bet for us and the community is to use up brews in 12 months and that goes for UGL sourced as well.

The days of big stock ups to save money is stupid, but at the same time you gotta keep your stock up and make sure you never run out. Waiting until the last moment is what too many people do and then find out their pack is stuck in customs or gets seized.

We wouldn't worry about using older vials if we just stopped producing or buying excess.

 

[Nilatac]

This is the thread where Jano did some testing to see if hormone degrades faster than we expected.

Degradation

The problem with this testing was that it wasn't scaled up to test multiple hormones in different esters in oil to see how fast they degrade. It would be a fascinating study and probably something that would end up being published if it were done right.

For me 5 years if something is pharma grade stored in ampules could possibly be used. I use silicone stoppers because they are basically inert and won't break down.

However I don't think BB or BA have all that long of a shelf life and studies need to be done on that to see if it breaks down as well and what the by products are.

The smart home brewer is better off cooking up small batches say 6 months worth and limiting it to that. I used to do 250ml batches which was a waste obviously.

The fact that is stored in ampules and not vials might indeed make a difference somehow but I don't know.

I have used some BA that was 5 years old and didn't have any issues and now using some test that I have brew in 2018 winter and don't notice any difference but if is 10% weaker I can't tell a difference tbh.

I just don't know a answer how quickly it's degrade and with how much% as time past and in what conditions has been stored.

Only was is to send a sample now and other after 3 years and see how the results will show. Other is just some speculation but if is 10% weaker you will not notice

 

[hijoshiki]

The fact that is stored in ampules and not vials might indeed make a difference somehow but I don't know.

I have used some BA that was 5 years old and didn't have any issues and now using some test that I have brew in 2018 winter and don't notice any difference but if is 10% weaker I can't tell a difference tbh.

I just don't know a answer how quickly it's degrade and with how much% as time past and in what conditions has been stored.

Only was is to send a sample now and other after 3 years and see how the results will show. Other is just some speculation but if is 10% weaker you will not notice

The tests would have to be tightly controlled and tested along with stable standards.

I don't think anyone outside of an analytical chemist could do this kind of study and make it relevant.

It would be a fantastic undergrad study to see what anabolics degrade overtime under certain conditions and different preparations. That would deserve a few pages in William Llewellyn's Anabolics 12ths edition.

​

 

[Sporting Raisins OH!!]

The safe bet for us and the community is to use up brews in 12 months and that goes for UGL sourced as well.

The days of big stock ups to save money is stupid, but at the same time you gotta keep your stock up and make sure you never run out. Waiting until the last moment is what too many people do and then find out their pack is stuck in customs or gets seized.

We wouldn't worry about using older vials if we just stopped producing or buying excess.

I did buy them under the old mentality with batches varying so much.
Now they are a collection of labs who have "moved on" that I'd never use.

 

[Sporting Raisins OH!!]

I always keep mine vacuum sealed and in the freezer.

Do you keep all your raws stored like that?

I just messaged my supplier and asked them how they store their raws. Cool dark dry place has always been my procedure, sealed bag, in another bag in a container etc

 

[hijoshiki]

The thing I've always worried about when it comes to freezing raws is the freeze thaw cycle. Obviously if you have bulk you'll be using them gradually, so I'd set aside the amount you'll be using for the next say 3 years and then freeze the rest as a back up supply.

I wouldn't stick all of it in the freezer.

Then again I think cool dark place that stays around 65 F all year round like a basement is the better option than freezing because you never know when your freezer will quit working even if you have a reliable freezer.

I've got raws that I've had now for 4 years that I sealed without oxygen in 7mil mylar heat sealed bags using argon gas and when I open them to brew they smell as fresh(sweet smell) as the day I packed them up, keeping them cool in the basement.

 

[BawlsDeep]

Do you keep all your raws stored like that?

I just messaged my supplier and asked them how they store their raws. Cool dark dry place has always been my procedure, sealed bag, in another bag in a container etc

Yes, all my raws. Your way of cool dark and dry in a sealed bag may very well be fine, but if you have the freezer space, colder is always better.

 

[Lil_swole87]

How do you keep the muster out tho how many bag can you give us some details please

 

[RedSwingline]

The thing I've always worried about when it comes to freezing raws is the freeze thaw cycle. Obviously if you have bulk you'll be using them gradually, so I'd set aside the amount you'll be using for the next say 3 years and then freeze the rest as a back up supply.

I wouldn't stick all of it in the freezer.

Then again I think cool dark place that stays around 65 F all year round like a basement is the better option than freezing because you never know when your freezer will quit working even if you have a reliable freezer.

I've got raws that I've had now for 4 years that I sealed without oxygen in 7mil mylar heat sealed bags using argon gas and when I open them to brew they smell as fresh(sweet smell) as the day I packed them up, keeping them cool in the basement.

So you do not vacuum seal the bags? How do you pump argon gas into the bag before heat sealing the mylar? Is there a second plastic bag within the mylar bag?

 

[hijoshiki]

So you do not vacuum seal the bags? How do you pump argon gas into the bag before heat sealing the mylar? Is there a second plastic bag within the mylar bag?

It's triple bagged. I seal them with vacuum sealers bags, then I heat seal the mylar bag to the point where I can get the nozzle for the argon into the bag, tilt the bag upright because argon is a heavy gas(or you can use nitrogen) and then fill the bag with gas and then finish the heat seal. I make sure the bag was already small so it doesn't take up much volume. It's obviously better to pack this in a bunch of little bags like 10grams each so you don't have to open one big bag. Gets kind of expensive. You could also use iron packets for reducing oxygen, but I find those unreliable in my experience and have had many of them fail when I open the packs a year later.

I don't use this method anymore, instead I use the following:

New empty paint cans. That's the method I went to. 500 grams per quart, 250 per pint, 125 per half pint. Cheap means of long term storage. Double bag, cram them in tight into the lined cans(non rust cans), then pound the lid and if you want hot glue the lid seam to seal out any air from getting in. You could place this in the freezer as well. You've got a long term storage that should never leak if you buy higher quality cans which cost like $3-4 each.

 

[RedSwingline]

It's triple bagged. I seal them with vacuum sealers bags, then I heat seal the mylar bag to the point where I can get the nozzle for the argon into the bag, tilt the bag upright because argon is a heavy gas(or you can use nitrogen) and then fill the bag with gas and then finish the heat seal. I make sure the bag was already small so it doesn't take up much volume. It's obviously better to pack this in a bunch of little bags like 10grams each so you don't have to open one big bag. Gets kind of expensive. You could also use iron packets for reducing oxygen, but I find those unreliable in my experience and have had many of them fail when I open the packs a year later.

I don't use this method anymore, instead I use the following:

New empty paint cans. That's the method I went to. 500 grams per quart, 250 per pint, 125 per half pint. Cheap means of long term storage. Double bag, cram them in tight into the lined cans(non rust cans), then pound the lid and if you want hot glue the lid seam to seal out any air from getting in. You could place this in the freezer as well. You've got a long term storage that should never leak if you buy higher quality cans which cost like $3-4 each.

That is a slick solution. I never would have thought of new paint cans. Perfect little air tight and rugged containers. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Renaajar]

It's triple bagged. I seal them with vacuum sealers bags, then I heat seal the mylar bag to the point where I can get the nozzle for the argon into the bag, tilt the bag upright because argon is a heavy gas(or you can use nitrogen) and then fill the bag with gas and then finish the heat seal. I make sure the bag was already small so it doesn't take up much volume. It's obviously better to pack this in a bunch of little bags like 10grams each so you don't have to open one big bag. Gets kind of expensive. You could also use iron packets for reducing oxygen, but I find those unreliable in my experience and have had many of them fail when I open the packs a year later.

I don't use this method anymore, instead I use the following:

New empty paint cans. That's the method I went to. 500 grams per quart, 250 per pint, 125 per half pint. Cheap means of long term storage. Double bag, cram them in tight into the lined cans(non rust cans), then pound the lid and if you want hot glue the lid seam to seal out any air from getting in. You could place this in the freezer as well. You've got a long term storage that should never leak if you buy higher quality cans which cost like $3-4 each.

How do you get some every year? Just use half pint cans? After you break the seal, just don’t refreeze? I was gonna vacuum seal bags that’ll last about a year. Could just store 3-5 years in a half pint. So long as they’re still vacuum sealed and in the can (reseal after pulling out 1 year) or could you refreeze it? Doubt hot glue will stick if it’s cold

 

[hijoshiki]

How do you get some every year? Just use half pint cans? After you break the seal, just don’t refreeze? I was gonna vacuum seal bags that’ll last about a year. Could just store 3-5 years in a half pint. So long as they’re still vacuum sealed and in the can (reseal after pulling out 1 year) or could you refreeze it? Doubt hot glue will stick if it’s cold

Acrylic hot glue stick using a heat gun to melt the end of the stick and then mashing the stick down into the grove around the lid will hold up to extreme freezing temps for paint cans.

Half pints in the freezer, for your back up needs. I wouldn't worry about pulling them, opening them, using what you need and putting them back in the freezer if freezing is what you want to do.

You can go with mylar bags if you want, but my experience with them even the thickest highest quality I could find, they still get tiny holes in them. A steel can is damn tough, it's not gonna puncture or lose its seal.

 

[Renaajar]

Acrylic hot glue stick using a heat gun to melt the end of the stick and then mashing the stick down into the grove around the lid will hold up to extreme freezing temps for paint cans.

Half pints in the freezer, for your back up needs. I wouldn't worry about pulling them, opening them, using what you need and putting them back in the freezer if freezing is what you want to do.

You can go with mylar bags if you want, but my experience with them even the thickest highest quality I could find, they still get tiny holes in them. A steel can is damn tough, it's not gonna puncture or lose its seal.

Watcha think about like gallon mason jars? For example, I buy 1kg of test powder... vacuum seal it in bags that'll last about 1 year, then vacuum seal three, one year bags, into a single bag with some desiccant beads ( there are nitrogen and moisture ones i'll get both) then take those 3 year bags and toss them into a mason jar into the freezer. I could even toss some beads in the bottom of the jar as well.

When I need more test, I can pull out a 3 year pouch, use 1 of the years, and then just store the next 2 years in my closet, 2 years should be just fine vacuum sealed i'd imagine even at room temps.

Solid plan? I might have purchased 2kgs of raw powders of different sorts, haha

 

[hijoshiki]

Watcha think about like gallon mason jars? For example, I buy 1kg of test powder... vacuum seal it in bags that'll last about 1 year, then vacuum seal three, one year bags, into a single bag with some desiccant beads ( there are nitrogen and moisture ones i'll get both) then take those 3 year bags and toss them into a mason jar into the freezer. I could even toss some beads in the bottom of the jar as well.

When I need more test, I can pull out a 3 year pouch, use 1 of the years, and then just store the next 2 years in my closet, 2 years should be just fine vacuum sealed i'd imagine even at room temps.

Solid plan? I might have purchased 2kgs of raw powders of different sorts, haha

I've done what you're talking about before.

It's fine if you want to do it that way.

However I think if you gotta a kilo to work with splitting them between half pint cans is the better option. No glass jar, no screwing around with vacuum bags. Just cram your 125g tight into each can double bagged with ziploc freezer bags. Use a number system like I do using numbers instead of letters. So say you got Test Ace you're storing....21 would be the number, 20 for T and 1 for A, or NPP would be 141616. Someone finds your stuff they'll not know what it is unless they test it. Or you can come up with something else using the Greek alphabet.

I prefer my can system because cans are pretty indestructible and I cram them tight with no air gap.

 

[Renaajar]

I've done what you're talking about before.

It's fine if you want to do it that way.

However I think if you gotta a kilo to work with splitting them between half pint cans is the better option. No glass jar, no screwing around with vacuum bags. Just cram your 125g tight into each can double bagged with ziploc freezer bags. Use a number system like I do using numbers instead of letters. So say you got Test Ace you're storing....21 would be the number, 20 for T and 1 for A, or NPP would be 141616. Someone finds your stuff they'll not know what it is unless they test it. Or you can come up with something else using the Greek alphabet.

I prefer my can system because cans are pretty indestructible and I cram them tight with no air gap.

Sounds good, love the numbering tip. I’ll use it too!

 

[Sporting Raisins OH!!]

I've done what you're talking about before.

It's fine if you want to do it that way.

However I think if you gotta a kilo to work with splitting them between half pint cans is the better option. No glass jar, no screwing around with vacuum bags. Just cram your 125g tight into each can double bagged with ziploc freezer bags. Use a number system like I do using numbers instead of letters. So say you got Test Ace you're storing....21 would be the number, 20 for T and 1 for A, or NPP would be 141616. Someone finds your stuff they'll not know what it is unless they test it. Or you can come up with something else using the Greek alphabet.

I prefer my can system because cans are pretty indestructible and I cram them tight with no air gap.

I copied the numbering system off my supplier. They number them off the price list they give and that number is already on the raws bag.

Using a vac seal machine with quality bags makes a big difference. It's surprising all the different types of plastics you can make a bag from and seal it.

 

[Renaajar]

I copied the numbering system off my supplier. They number them off the price list they give and that number is already on the raws bag.

Using a vac seal machine with quality bags makes a big difference. It's surprising all the different types of plastics you can make a bag from and seal it.

I got the Costco brand bags and machine. Usually their stuff Is top notch, hope the bags are too!