Simplicity, consistency, accountability

[Trenbolonetax]

Oh, above labs were from like 3 weeks ago, on telmisartan. And primo actually. Since dropped both

FWIW, 5mg of Telmisartan seems unlikely to really move the needle much? I’ve been on 80mg for close to a decade no issues.

I do intake much more sodium than you do and also closer to 1:1 sodium : potassium ratio.

Based on the extra water you’re holding though it does sound like your electrolytes (and loooks like) are a bit off which could definitely be contributing to your cramps

 

[twreck555]

FWIW, 5mg of Telmisartan seems unlikely to really move the needle much? I’ve been on 80mg for close to a decade no issues.

I do intake much more sodium than you do and also closer to 1:1 sodium : potassium ratio.

Based on the extra water you’re holding though it does sound like your electrolytes (and loooks like) are a bit off which could definitely be contributing to your cramps

Thanks man. So just add more sodium? I drink >1gal fluid every day so I'm just not sure what else to do or how to fix it.

There's days I seriously feel like a water balloon. It's very obvious in my ankles, my socks leave rings in the edema. BP has been good though, 121/82 this AM

Primo definitely helped dry me out a bit, just came to the conclusion that I wasn't ready physically or psychologically to be on that path just yet. But that makes me think that E2 might be playing a role in my current state. Possibly with contribution from the HGH. Interested to see if Broderick's 5 on 2 off protocol for the HGH will help over time with the fluid. It's supposed to.

I suspect the fluid retention and cramps are connected somehow but again not 100% sure. Interested to see what my E2 comes back at on December bloodwork

 

[Trenbolonetax]

Thanks man. So just add more sodium? I drink >1gal fluid every day so I'm just not sure what else to do or how to fix it.

There's days I seriously feel like a water balloon. It's very obvious in my ankles, my socks leave rings in the edema. BP has been good though, 121/82 this AM

Primo definitely helped dry me out a bit, just came to the conclusion that I wasn't ready physically or psychologically to be on that path just yet. But that makes me think that E2 might be playing a role in my current state. Possibly with contribution from the HGH. Interested to see if Broderick's 5 on 2 off protocol for the HGH will help over time with the fluid. It's supposed to.

I suspect the fluid retention and cramps are connected somehow but again not 100% sure. Interested to see what my E2 comes back at on December bloodwork

I bet the fluid retention and your cramps are also connected.

One thing to be careful of is that if you're drinking quite a bit of fluid, you'll cramp easier because of diluting sodium and other electrolytes, unless you're also replacing those at a higher rate. The fact that you are lower sodium and chloride on your blood test would make me want to supplement with additional salt since it appears those two have decreased since your last test IIRC.

If you just started GH recently, extra fluid retention is definitely normal, and can contribute to cramps even though you're holding more water due to upsetting balance of intra / extra cellular hydration.

IME, massive swings from lower carb to high carb and resulting fluid shift can result in terrible cramps.

Seems like there is a lot going on right now but if i were you, first thing I would personally do is add extra salt to my food.

Sure you may retain a bit of extra water initially, but the body will accommodate that and find new equilibrium shortly and you'll be back to a good place without cramps.

 

[twreck555]

I bet the fluid retention and your cramps are also connected.

One thing to be careful of is that if you're drinking quite a bit of fluid, you'll cramp easier because of diluting sodium and other electrolytes, unless you're also replacing those at a higher rate. The fact that you are lower sodium and chloride on your blood test would make me want to supplement with additional salt since it appears those two have decreased since your last test IIRC.

If you just started GH recently, extra fluid retention is definitely normal, and can contribute to cramps even though you're holding more water due to upsetting balance of intra / extra cellular hydration.

IME, massive swings from lower carb to high carb and resulting fluid shift can result in terrible cramps.

Seems like there is a lot going on right now but if i were you, first thing I would personally do is add extra salt to my food.

Sure you may retain a bit of extra water initially, but the body will accommodate that and find new equilibrium shortly and you'll be back to a good place without cramps.

This definitely sounds reasonable. I will certainly try this.

And yes there are certainly massive shifts in carbs at times because most days I'll stick to the plan and other days I eat like an asshole lol.

Though today I stuck to the plan

 

[twreck555]

Didn't have time or energy to log training yesterday, but for week 1 day 3:

Cardio 3 mile ruck with 20 lbs, 450 feet gain, 1:04

Lower body B
Checking ego, keeping weight low, reps slow, form tight. Focus on healing slowly
Physio Mobility routine
SQuat 95x10, 85x15
Sldl 105x12, 95x16
Ring Assist Pistol to box 2x12ea
Kickstand dl 25#x2x12ea
Twisting Bulgarian 25#x2x12ea
Abduction in side Plank 2x12ea
1 leg knee extension (monkeyfeet) 25#x15ea
1 leg ham curl (mf) 15#x15ea
Donkey kick (mf) 15#x15ea
Calf raise +20#x15 too easy
Tib raise +20#x15 too easy
Cable crunch 50#x15 too easy, need to find the right angle for these as I've never done them before

Macro p219 f36 c244 kcal 2200

Steps 9142

 

[readalot]

If you just started GH recently, extra fluid retention is definitely normal, and can contribute to cramps even though you're holding more water due to upsetting balance of intra / extra cellular hydration.

This TrenT dude can call himself retard all day long but of course he ain't. You've received some extremely thoughtful comments. You got alot going on and didn't methodically add stuff 1 Degree of Freedom at a time.

I'd dial back the GH and androgens and get electrolyte balance back in order. The carb swings with the drugs can be brutal. Way too much extracellular water.

Enjoying your log!

 

[twreck555]

207.1# this AM. Trend line now flat, bet it turns downward over the next day or two.

Slept full eight hours and felt like I could have easily slept two more. Awoke feeling very fatigued. Anyone else feel like they need MORE than eight hours? Not sure what this is about. All my biometrics are shit as well, HRV low, RHR high, don't THINK I'm overtraining I think my body is just adapting to having made way too many changes in too little time. Introducing novel exercises has something to do with this I'm sure, lots of neural adaptation needed.

Working an overtime shift today so there won't be any training to speak of, will try to get my 10k steps and stick to my diet. The extra work isn't going to help my recovery but I've got to somehow pay for what Santa is bringing, a big upgrade to the Happy Place which admittedly is already pretty damn alright.

 

[Grey Spartan]

One thing to be careful of is that if you're drinking quite a bit of fluid, you'll cramp easier because of diluting sodium and other electrolytes, unless you're also replacing those at a higher rate. The fact that you are lower sodium and chloride on your blood test would make me want to supplement with additional salt since it appears those two have decreased since your last test IIRC.

^^^^ This ^^^^

 

[twreck555]

This dude can call himself retard all day long but of course he ain't. You've received some extremely thoughtful comments. You got alot going on and didn't methodically add stuff 1 Degree of Freedom at a time.

I'd dial back the GH and androgens and get electrolyte balance back in order. The carb swings with the drugs can be brutal.

Enjoying your log!

Yeah definitely, I'm learning. If you make too many changes too quickly then you won't know how to fix it when things go sideways. Noted lol.

I'm hoping that my reduction to 150mg test/wk and 2 iu hgh 5d/wk will help smooth things out. That's basically 1/2 the weekly dose compared to two weeks ago.

 

[twreck555]

Speaking of troubleshooting and simplification...

I realize I'm dealing with several issues simultaneously and I've put so many things into play that I don't know what's doing what.

Namely:
- I'm having the aforementioned muscle cramps.
- I'm holding more fluid than I'd like.
- I feel like I'm not recovering as well as I should be and my biometrics (hrv, rhr, sleep scores) all look like shit.
- My libido is subpar
- I keep having reflux

Meanwhile I've implemented and changed two different hormones and a glp1 agonist, as well as multiple ancillary meds and otc supplements. I realize with so many things in play I really have no chance to resolve the above issues.

So in the interest of having a simpler base from which to troubleshoot these problems, I am going to go forward with my plan of ditching all the ancillary and otc supps. Once I have resolved most or all the above issues, I will add the supplements and/or ancillaries back in one at a time, no more than one per week, starting with the highest reward/lowest risk items and moving down from there.

So starting tomorrow my stack in it's entirety (including all prescribed and otc meds and supplements) will be:

Test C 50 mg 3x/wk
HGH 2 IU 5x/wk
Retatrutide 4 mg 1x/wk
Rosuvastatin 10 mg daily

Everything else goes that doesn't qualify as food. I'll see how my symptoms do and if necessary may have to tweak things in the above list to get dialed in. Then we'll go from there.

 

[readalot]

Speaking of troubleshooting and simplification...

I realize I'm dealing with several issues simultaneously and I've put so many things into play that I don't know what's doing what.

Namely:
- I'm having the aforementioned muscle cramps.
- I'm holding more fluid than I'd like.
- I feel like I'm not recovering as well as I should be and my biometrics (hrv, rhr, sleep scores) all look like shit.
- My libido is subpar
- I keep having reflux

Meanwhile I've implemented and changed two different hormones and a glp1 agonist, as well as multiple ancillary meds and otc supplements. I realize with so many things in play I really have no chance to resolve the above issues.

So in the interest of having a simpler base from which to troubleshoot these problems, I am going to go forward with my plan of ditching all the ancillary and otc supps. Once I have resolved most or all the above issues, I will add the supplements and/or ancillaries back in one at a time, no more than one per week, starting with the highest reward/lowest risk items and moving down from there.

So starting tomorrow my stack in it's entirety (including all prescribed and otc meds and supplements) will be:

Test C 50 mg 3x/wk
HGH 2 IU 5x/wk
Retatrutide 4 mg 1x/wk
Rosuvastatin 10 mg daily

Everything else goes that doesn't qualify as food. I'll see how my symptoms do and if necessary may have to tweak things in the above list to get dialed in. Then we'll go from there.

This makes way too much sense for a forum post Brother. Well done!

I think that Test+GH dosing may have been too much to start.

 

[twreck555]

This makes way too much sense for a forum post Brother. Well done!

I think that Test+GH dosing may have been too much to start.

Yeah I maxed out at 280/wk and 3 iu/day so I've more or less cut that in half, and dropped primo. Too high too quickly, though the primo masked some of the side effects of the test I think.

 

[readalot]

Yeah I maxed out at 280/wk and 3 iu/day so I've more or less cut that in half, and dropped primo. Too high too quickly, though the primo masked some of the side effects of the test I think.

I started at 120 mg/week Test Cyp for TRT and had swolen ankles for months with 8% BF. Takes time for RAAS system to adjust. Now I can bang alot more androgens. Still haven't pulled the trigger on GH 7 years later.

 

[twreck555]

I started at 120 mg/week Test Cyp for TRT and had swolen ankles for months with 8% BF. Takes time for RAAS system to adjust. Now I can bang alot more androgens. Still haven't pulled the trigger on GH 7 years later.

Ok that definitely puts my recklessness in perspective. Thanks for that, I feel like an asshole now that I look back, like duh what did i expect to happen? Well live and learn.

I will absolutely keep this in mind going forward, however... gonna stick to my plan for a second and see what bloodwork says in December. IF I'm still sky high on bloodwork, and I acknowledge that's a distinct possibility, I'll come down more.

I do think my system in particular is very sensitive to hormones because for years I had artificially high SHBG due to chronic kratom abuse/dependency and now suboxone therapy. Thus my free T and E2 were also very suppressed. IIRC when I tested 5 yrs ago at the height of my addiction my TT was 600 but SHBG was 105, free T < 5 and E2 < 5, below the lower limits of the range. I assume it was like that for years. Now I've completely reversed, SHBG is low. Free T is high, E2 was in range on last labs but that was with primo in play which I've now pulled. So it's entirely possible E2 will come back high in December and I'll reduce the dose of T. Likewise if free T is high

Interestingly my igf1 went DOWN from natural in August to my October labs which were on 210 test 105 primo 3 gh

Although the gh I did have tested and wasn't very good quality, I've since switched to a better batch

 

[twreck555]

Just talked to PCP, pulling rosuvastatin as well to see if that helps with cramps. So that will be priority #1 for reintroduction

 

[twreck555]

I started at 120 mg/week Test Cyp for TRT and had swolen ankles for months with 8% BF. Takes time for RAAS system to adjust. Now I can bang alot more androgens. Still haven't pulled the trigger on GH 7 years later.

Yeah actually this has me thinking. I'm feeling like a bloated mess today, gravity is cranked up to 11, and it's all I can do to get through the work day much less hit my step goal.

Now granted this feeling has come and gone over days and weeks and no doubt some of how I feel today has to do with me reducing suboxone dose this week, and that will fade as I get used to the new dose.

But there is no doubt I'm holding extra fluid, and as the primo gets further and further in the past I do think the fluid retention is getting worse despite already having reduced test and gh.

So I'm left feeling tempted to reduce even further. To 120 or even 100 per week test, and possibly even drop the gh temporarily.

I cannot deny that I felt the best on 100 test and nothing else.

So perhaps the answer is to go back to what was working, before i started tinkering and fucked everything up.

I can always go back up later.

Not sure yet but those are my thoughts at this moment

 

[Jin23]

Namely:
- I'm having the aforementioned muscle cramps.
- I'm holding more fluid than I'd like.
- I feel like I'm not recovering as well as I should be and my biometrics (hrv, rhr, sleep scores) all look like shit.

For "some", trt isn't as easy as just pinning test. People end up on varying protocols in order to feel good. Some use hcg, some pregnenolone or dhea, or even progesterone, some find shorter esters to function better, then there is ofc estrogen management, etc. You're also reacting to a drop in androgen levels.

Having test numbers at these levels is taxing on the system (you probably are around 1200 - 1500 ngdl). The longer you're on it, the more disregulated your hpa axis will become and with that a bunch of irregularities/pathologies emerge. The honeymoon phase we mentioned earlier, it looks like it might be coming to an end.

HRV of course goes down with androgen use as androgens activate the sympathetic branch of the nervous system. I'm not quite sure why you're surprised by this?

Regarding cramps, first thing to do ofc is try adding magnesium. Then potassium. If you are drinking and sweating a lot, then sodium is also a must. GH increases sodium reabsorption, so the chances of you actually having low sodium are low (unless dietary sodium is really low).

 

[twreck555]

For "some", trt isn't as easy as just pinning test. People end up on varying protocols in order to feel good. Some use hcg, some pregnenolone or dhea, or even progesterone, some find shorter esters to function better, then there is ofc estrogen management, etc. You're also reacting to a drop in androgen levels.

Having test numbers at these levels is taxing on the system (you probably are around 1200 - 1500 ngdl). The longer you're on it, the more disregulated your hpa axis will become and with that a bunch of irregularities/pathologies emerge. The honeymoon phase we mentioned earlier, it looks like it might be coming to an end.

HRV of course goes down with androgen use as androgens activate the sympathetic branch of the nervous system. I'm not quite sure why you're surprised by this?

Regarding cramps, first thing to do ofc is try adding magnesium. Then potassium. If you are drinking and sweating a lot, then sodium is also a must. GH increases sodium reabsorption, so the chances of you actually having low sodium are low (unless dietary sodium is really low).

With respect to HRV, I'm only surprised that, after drastically reducing test dose and removing primo, the numbers are trending in the wrong direction and im sleeping worse. They were ok, though not great, on 280 test 70 primo, now on 150 test theyre in the toilet. Now to be fair this seems to happen with any dose change up or down.

WRT electrolytes, I already supplement ~4g K+ and >2g (elemental) Mg++. Not 2g mag threonate, or mag glycinate, but elemental mag. I take 2g threonate 3x/day, 2g glycinate at bedtime, and drink an electrolyte mix with 300 mg Mg++ 3x/day. It's quite a lot and it occurs to me it could be too much? I.wasn't replacing as much sodium so am trying to increase that. Fluid intake ~1 gal.per day. Na+ 132 on labs, so it was slightly low, possibly just overhydration that particular day though.

My electrolyte supplementation was purposefully light on sodium because I've been fighting fluid retention this whole time, but as hyponatremia could be a factor putting Na+ back to higher amounts. Honestly the only thing that seemed to help with the fluid was primo, so I have suspicion that the fluid is e2 related.

 

[Jin23]

With respect to HRV, I'm only surprised that, after drastically reducing test dose and removing primo, the numbers are trending in the wrong direction and im sleeping worse. They were ok, though not great, on 280 test 70 primo, now on 150 test theyre in the toilet. Now to be fair this seems to happen with any dose change up or down.

Hormonal fluctuations aren't without side effects. And there could be a lot of issues at play. However, I think you don't quite understand what we talked about earlier. Your biology isn't static, particularly now when it's under stress from a high androgen load. The longer you are ON the more your biology deteriorates and with it the greater the stress response, amongst other things. So you are thinking, "why am I experiencing higher stress now then what I was before", excluding the fact that time has passed and that time equals to "damage accumulated". Your body isn't a digital computer, it's analogous.

It is for this reason why I initially said it was a bad idea for you to play with aas as everything gets worse with time and your ability to manage (impulses, emotions, etc.) goes way down.

I'm not delving in to all the possible intracies of why you're feeling as you are now as I'm too tired and under slept, just know that you are still taxing your body with your protocol, you are still on a light cycle and trt is most probably going to be around 75 - 100 mg's for you (if you were around 2000 ngdl at 200 mg's).

Look up papers on dysregulated hpa axis for starters.

Fyi, in regards to training, you also could be overreaching and might be in need of a deload.

 

[twreck555]

Hormonal fluctuations aren't without side effects. And there could be a lot of issues at play. However, I think you don't quite understand what we talked about earlier. Your biology isn't static, particularly now when it's under stress from a high androgen load. The longer you are ON the more your biology deteriorates and with it the greater the stress response, amongst other things. So you are thinking, "why am I experiencing higher stress now then what I was before", excluding the fact that time has passed and that time equals to "damage accumulated". Your body isn't a digital computer, it's analogous.

It is for this reason why I initially said it was a bad idea for you to play with aas as everything gets worse with time and your ability to manage (impulses, emotions, etc.) goes way down.

I'm not delving in to all the possible intracies of why you're feeling as you are now as I'm too tired and under slept, just know that you are still taxing your body with your protocol, you are still on a light cycle and trt is most probably going to be around 75 - 100 mg's for you (if you were around 2000 ngdl at 200 mg's).

Look up papers on dysregulated hpa axis for starters.

Fyi, in regards to training, you also could be overreaching and might be in need of a deload.

I just find it fascinating that the body reacts the same way to changes in both directions. While on the way up it seemed to take approximately 1 week to normalize (rhr, hrv) at each new dose. So I'm hopeful this will be the same.

As far as dosage... we'll see I'm sure you're right and me self managing is in fact a bad idea but now that I'm getting vials of cypionate for $30 there is literally no way I'm ever paying $250 for the identical product from a compounding pharmacy. Not that the MD was any good and immediately put me on 200mg + arimidex right out of the gate

Training wise, don't think deload is necessary , just had a deload like a week ago. Possible volume is just set too high but it really shouldn't be. I think I've done maybe 50 sets in the last week, tops. And only cardio is walking.

Anyway I do appreciate your input, always, even if I don't always agree on all of it. And even if I suspect that I understand probably a lot more than you give me credit for. Knowledge isn't usually my shortcoming, wisdom is.