So confused about PCT

[changeling3]

I have read every single article on ThinkSteroids.com, and have read the entire Anabolics book by William Llewellyn.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is a proper PCT protocol, because everything I read seems completely at odds with everything else. There is absolutely no consensus at all, even on the articles on this website!

Honestly, I have been wanting to do an AAS cycle for about 5 years and the lack of understanding of proper PCT that makes me feel comfortable enough to go through with it has held me back.

I am very experienced with training (over 16 years) and have done just about all I can naturally. I have competed several times in NPC and brought myself to 5-6% bf drug free several times. My big lift total is around 1300 at a weight of 190-200lbs.

I am not some newbie who randomly decided to go on roids and didn't do any research. The issue is, there is no consensus and the more I read the more confused I get.

Anyway, please critique/correct my plan for my first cycle:

10 Week Cycle
- W1-10: 250mg Test-Cyp (2x/week - Mon/Thurs)
- W1-10: 0.25mg Adex (EOD)
- W9-10: 275iu HCG (3x/wk - Mon/Wed/Fri)

2 Week Break
- W1-2: 275iu HCG (3x/wk - Mon/Wed/Fri)

6 Week PCT
- W1-6: 20mg Nolva (ED)
- W1-2: 100mg Clomid (ED)
- W3-4: 50mg Clomid (ED)

Is this appropriate? I am not looking for huge gains. I am just looking to increase muscle mass/strength a bit and then maintain whilst I go into a relatively heavy caloric deficit to drop about 6% of body fat more or less effortlessly (keep in mind, to me effortlessly is a relative term compared to getting to 5-6% naturally which is extremely hard mentally).

I am somewhat susceptible to both hair loss and gyno I believe, having had gyno issues through puberty and random pain in nipples every handful of years for a couple days. My mother's dad is bald, but I have a full head of hair so I think I am at risk but not super high risk... still don't want to risk it hence trying to keep my cycle moderate and reasonable length.

Outside of avoiding those two sides, I obviously want to maintain any gains. I have no problem adjusting calorie intake/training to match gained mass, I just want to not rebound and lose it all from a shitty PCT cycle or improper supplemental product usage while oncycle.

PS, I am on 8iu HGH EOD currently and have been for 3 months now.

 

[guyzcool]

I have read every single article on ThinkSteroids.com, and have read the entire Anabolics book by William Llewellyn.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is a proper PCT protocol, because everything I read seems completely at odds with everything else. There is absolutely no consensus at all, even on the articles on this website!

Honestly, I have been wanting to do an AAS cycle for about 5 years and the lack of understanding of proper PCT that makes me feel comfortable enough to go through with it has held me back.

I am very experienced with training (over 16 years) and have done just about all I can naturally. I have competed several times in NPC and brought myself to 5-6% bf drug free several times. My big lift total is around 1300 at a weight of 190-200lbs.

I am not some newbie who randomly decided to go on roids and didn't do any research. The issue is, there is no consensus and the more I read the more confused I get.

Anyway, please critique/correct my plan for my first cycle:

10 Week Cycle
- W1-10: 250mg Test-Cyp (2x/week - Mon/Thurs)
- W1-10: 0.25mg Adex (EOD)
- W9-10: 275iu HCG (3x/wk - Mon/Wed/Fri)

2 Week Break
- W1-2: 275iu HCG (3x/wk - Mon/Wed/Fri)

6 Week PCT
- W1-6: 20mg Nolva (ED)
- W1-2: 100mg Clomid (ED)
- W3-4: 50mg Clomid (ED)

Is this appropriate? I am not looking for huge gains. I am just looking to increase muscle mass/strength a bit and then maintain whilst I go into a relatively heavy caloric deficit to drop about 6% of body fat more or less effortlessly (keep in mind, to me effortlessly is a relative term compared to getting to 5-6% naturally which is extremely hard mentally).

I am somewhat susceptible to both hair loss and gyno I believe, having had gyno issues through puberty and random pain in nipples every handful of years for a couple days. My mother's dad is bald, but I have a full head of hair so I think I am at risk but not super high risk... still don't want to risk it hence trying to keep my cycle moderate and reasonable length.

Outside of avoiding those two sides, I obviously want to maintain any gains. I have no problem adjusting calorie intake/training to match gained mass, I just want to not rebound and lose it all from a shitty PCT cycle or improper supplemental product usage while oncycle.

PS, I am on 8iu HGH EOD currently and have been for 3 months now.

8 iu of hgh??? Wow!! It is better to run hcg during the cycle as opposed to during your pct, this will.prevent testicular atrophy. Also you need pharmaceutical Ai and pct.. have you purchased them yet?

 

[changeling3]

why are you so surprised regarding 8iu hgh? That's only on M/W/F, so total weekly is 24iu, which is only ~3.5 iu per day... pretty standard from what I understand.

 

[guyzcool]

why are you so surprised regarding 8iu hgh? That's only on M/W/F, so total weekly is 24iu, which is only ~3.5 iu per day... pretty standard from what I understand.

I thought it was 8iu a day!my bad.

 

[changeling3]

anyone else have any feedback?

 

[changeling3]

so nobody has any comments or advice about my proprosed cycle or pct? I thought this was a forum to discuss AAS and how to use them properly... I've done my research but it's just a bunch of he said she said, so I'm hoping for some specific advice...

Please help!

 

[Burrr]

so nobody has any comments or advice about my proprosed cycle or pct? I thought this was a forum to discuss AAS and how to use them properly... I've done my research but it's just a bunch of he said she said, so I'm hoping for some specific advice...

Please help!

Dont get your panties in a bunch. Train wrecks are more fun to watch than a careful driver like yourself, lol.
Your cycle and PCT look great, props to you for doing tons of homework.
I'd bump the cycle to 12 weeks, and take a 3 week break between cycle and PCT.
12 weeks is a pretty standard first cycle, and 2 or 3 weeks between the last pin and PCT is standard as well. Dr Scally thinks 2 weeks is too soon, so I'd go for 3 weeks unless you feel like your test level is tanked at 2 weeks (ie no libido, no boners)
How old are you?
Did you do pre cycle bloods yet?
again, great job on starting off informed. Hit me up for advice any time.

 

[changeling3]

Haha thanks for the honesty.

I'm 31 and have my supplies but im not starting my cycle till I have baseline blood tests completed (so I can compare after pct to ensure I'm recovered).

Appreciate the advice on 12 wk vs 10.

If hair loss is of concern to me, should I do finasteride throughout cycle (and pct?) or is that not something I need to worry about on this type of cycle?

 

[Burrr]

I couldnt tell you about hairloss, dont have it myself and did not read up on it.
If finasteride is the same shit as propecia, I'd avoid it. There have been some guys that got pretty messed up sides from it and have them for the long term.

 

[Dr JIM]

Haha thanks for the honesty.

I'm 31 and have my supplies but im not starting my cycle till I have baseline blood tests completed (so I can compare after pct to ensure I'm recovered).

Appreciate the advice on 12 wk vs 10.

If hair loss is of concern to me, should I do finasteride throughout cycle (and pct?) or is that not something I need to worry about on this type of cycle?

My suggestion try a repost after your labs have returned!

 

[Dr JIM]

1) There is absolutely no consensus at all, even on the articles on this website!


2) I am just looking to increase muscle mass/strength a bit and then maintain whilst I go into a relatively heavy caloric deficit to drop about 6% of body fat more or less effortlessly (keep in mind, to me effortlessly is a relative term compared to getting to 5-6% naturally which is extremely hard mentally).

3) I am somewhat susceptible to both hair loss and gyno I believe, having had gyno issues through puberty and random pain in nipples every handful of years for a couple days. My mother's dad is bald, but I have a full head of hair so I think I am at risk but not super high risk... still don't want to risk it hence trying to keep my cycle moderate and reasonable length.

.

1) Correct and you're NOT going to find a "consensus" here either bc PCT is NOT some evidence based protocol

2) What youre describing is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, I mean where do you think your "effortless" (whatever that means) BMR requirements will come from, FAT primarily.

3) And AAS WILL result in more HAIR LOSS and WILL increase the probability of developing GCM, (Both of these problems are discussed at length in BR citations and in LWs book)

If you read and understood ALL of Bill Roberts AAS/Ancillary info and WL book, many of your questions wouldnt have been posted, fella.

So let me suggest you try a repost after all of your labs have returned.

 

[changeling3]

Jim, have you ever had personal experience prepping for a bodybuilding show as a natural, drug free (and previously drug free for life up to that point)? If not, you may never truly understand/be able to conceive of what I am talking about... you have to go through such an experience to understand how difficult it really is.

I'm a nutritionist and in the fitness industry for a long time, and I can tell you from having worked with so many people on a natural level (I do not mess with steroids bc I have no personal experience with them... yet), it's painfully obvious that AAS usage makes it easier to get lean. How do I know?

1. People I know on AAS who have no understanding of macronutrient intake and follow hearsay regarding needing to eat chicken and broccoli all day without any knowledge of what their actual calorie intake is on a day to day basis, yet they've attained an impressively-lean physique (and aren't genetically predisposed to it, as they've not been this way their entire life). The amount of natural people with that level of understanding of nutrition who are at the same level of leanness? Never met one who wasn't genetically predisposed and I can count the total people I've ever met genetically predisposed on one hand.

2. People I've worked with in a natural setting who couldn't mentally handle the commitment it takes to diet down naturally, would cheat on their diet and flail with no results for months... leaning out in a matter of weeks as soon as they started taking AAS.

So, to me that means:

- more leeway with macro intake (e.g not having to hit your protein numbers every single time perfectly, and more ability to go over your macros occasionally without it negatively affecting your progress)
- better ability to hold onto muscle mass and strength (unless REALLY going about it the wrong way, I've seen BB competitors lose 50% of their gains during a cut)
- ability to relax somewhat on dietary compliance (keep in mind I am used to tracking every single thing that enters my body down to the gram, every day... so for me "relaxing" would be like, having a restaurant dinner every couple weeks that I don't have to call ahead and interview the server on the exact grams of each ingredient)

And seriously, I am not trying to toot my own horn here at all, just being realistic. My level of understanding of nutrition and fitness (as a natural) is at what I would consider an "expert" level. I've been studying it professionally, academically and recreationally for almost 2 decades.

The area I am a novice in is AAS specifically, but even there, I still have read as much as I can, including recent studies released (commonly discussed amongst the sports scientists in the industry). The only reason I am not extremely well-versed in AAS is because, like you said, there is no evidence based protocols, or really, evidence-based anything, at least outside of medical use which only has so much carryover. It's pretty much 100% conjecture and anecdotal experience. Thus, I am relegated to asking on forums for advice instead of "researching" it myself.

All that being said, I am scheduled for a test next week, will post results ASAP. Thank you for your time!

 

[changeling3]

As promised, lab results. I've had the gear sitting in my cabinet and ancillaries in my fridge for 2 weeks, untouched while I waited for these. If that doesn't show you I'm serious and not impulsive, then I don't know what will.

So, thoughts?

 

[changeling3]

bump?

 

[changeling3]

So now that I have labs, nobody has any advice? Good to see this forum is super useful. Seems like it's just a place for this Dr Jim douche to act like a snarky dick to everyone to stroke his ego.

 

[gator22]

Well when you call people out like Dr Jim and act like douche bag ain't no one gonna help you.

 

[changeling3]

Well when you call people out like Dr Jim and act like douche bag ain't no one gonna help you.

yes, god forbid i don't join in the nuthugging. Considering that all he did was tell me to "get labs" (with no follow up feedback) and patronizingly "educated" me on basic fundamentals of energy balance, looks like I won't be missing much.

 

[gator22]

when you ask for advise and it is given you and you don't like what you hear don't critisze the people trying to help you. They more than likely know more than you since you asked for help.

 

[changeling3]

when you ask for advise and it is given you and you don't like what you hear don't critisze the people trying to help you. They more than likely know more than you since you asked for help.

What "help" was given? Nobody helped with anything that's the entire problem. People (dr Jim) just snarkily misinterpreted my question and told me to get labs and then are completely silent when I post the labs. Use your head bro. My issue is there was NO help given, this forum is pointless. But please, keep the nut hugging up its working out well for you, beta boy.

 

[guyzcool]

What "help" was given? Nobody helped with anything that's the entire problem. People (dr Jim) just snarkily misinterpreted my question and told me to get labs and then are completely silent when I post the labs. Use your head bro. My issue is there was NO help given, this forum is pointless. But please, keep the nut hugging up its working out well for you, beta boy.

See its attitudes like that, where people don't want to help you. So essentially you want to be spoon fed some more and then once it stops you complain about no-body helping you??