Soreness, a shaky pillar of my workout

[jago25_98]

If my muscle is sore I feel I've worked it hard enough and it's time to move on. However, I hear that this could be irrelevent?

I've enjoyed using soreness as an indicator of a good workout and when ready to train again. Can I continue to do so?

"Get a plan, and make sure it works. Don't rely on "da pump" to make
you big and strong.
If this style of training has been meeting your goals...then don't
change it. However, if it hasn't, than don't get apathetic. Find the
changes that need to be made, and make them. "

hmm... well there is definately progress but I think its slow and all I know...

from the sticky: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/8507

"Sometimes the training means that
induce soreness also happen to be the same ones that provide a
stimulus for progress in strength at a particular time. Alas,
this is not always the case or training would be a simple case
of making yourself sore, waiting for the soreness to go away,
and then making yourself sore again."
^ what I've been doing :/

"Hogg you mentioned that soreness in the pecs, bi's and hams was a
good indicator that more rest should be taken for those areas. Why
is that? Succeptibility to tearing?"
"By not training when
you are sore, you can (and may) decrease your preparation."
"One thing i know for sure, is that it has nothing to do
with progress"
" One thing is certain, that old "no pain no gain, you should not miss a
workout even if you are sore" gym-lore recommendation is
bullshit....when a muscle is sore, it is definitely not recovered"
" training while sore will not lead to muscle tears, if it did,
every strength athlete"
"If your quads
are still sore, are you going to ramp your training poundages up
past 80% 1RM? Many on this board commonly do the same routine week
after week, session after session, increasing the weight,
decreasing the reps, using momentum to complete a lift rather than
calling it quits when the muscle is no longer able to drive the
load.....and training in this manner can have severe consequences,
perhaps not if you are mildly sore....still feeling a little
tenderness when you stretch out a muscle, but chronically
sore....when your glutes hurt sooo bad that you have trouble
getting out of your chair or when your arms hurt so bad that you
wince in pain when you pick up a coffee pot.....obviously degree
of soreness is something that needs to be defined"

"This is
why most (not all) of the elite Powerlifters train
bench and back in the same plane of movement
(horizontal). In addition to that, many train both
bench and rows in the same day"
^ interesting, maybe dividing days into back and front isn't such a good idea

 

[dave_r]

soreness

O.K heres the deal:

Soreness is not an indicator of a productive session. DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) tends to be an indication of preipheral (in the muscle) trauma or waste products.

Training a muscle whilst sore is not recommended generally, Doms could b an indicator of micro tears in the muscle (or sarcomere popping), to train whilst sore could potentially increase this trauma further to full blown tears (macro -trauma) and is generally linked to eccentric type training.

Some people find that they arent satisfied unless they feel an intense soreness in the muscle24-48 hours after training. Thsi notion is based on the 1 factor theory of training.

The pump sensation too isnt a indicator of a successful session either, but the ability to pump is important.

What most trainees struggle to do is to stop looking at the smaller picture and focus less on soreness after a single session but progression on a weekly basis. The only true indicator of whether your training effectively is if your body is improving, so instead of focusing on whether you get sore after a workout, try to focus on your weekly progress, have you improved over the week? if yes then good, if not then something needs re-adressing.

Im sure other will elaborate and offer a seperate opinion. Just what i think.

 

[Madcow2]

What dave_r said.

In addition, frequent soreness is more an indicator of lack of conditioning for a given program. The typical 3 day split, train each muscle 1x per week to failure with a variety of exercises will get you sore just about every time, and it's a shitty way to train on a consistent basis (or any basis but I'll throw out a consolation of consistent).

Most people on well planned programs are hardly ever sore and generally it's just when they change the protocol. Stretch a bit and work through it. If you are really sore where injury may occur, don't train and just do some light recovery work to get blood in the muscle and aid in recovery.

Make sure you read the Johnsmith sticky at the top of this forum, specifically the dual factor topic (I think it's the 3rd post or somewhere in there).

BTW - this is one of the few boards on the internet where you are actually going to get a decent answer and not some BBer no nothing bullshit. Here's another topic discussing the causes behind DOMS (you'll notice not a single person assigns any real relevance to it): http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=23534

 

[Bob Smith]

Training a muscle whilst sore is not recommended generally, Doms could b an indicator of micro tears in the muscle (or sarcomere popping), to train whilst sore could potentially increase this trauma further to full blown tears (macro -trauma) and is generally linked to eccentric type training.

Overall a very good response, but I tend to disagree here. I dont see anything wrong with hitting a muscle while still sore from the previous workout. The only time I would object to it is if the soreness is more an indicator of injury rather than an intense workout. Most people can tell the difference.

 

[CyniQ]

Overall a very good response, but I tend to disagree here. I dont see anything wrong with hitting a muscle while still sore from the previous workout. The only time I would object to it is if the soreness is more an indicator of injury rather than an intense workout. Most people can tell the difference.

I tend to agree with you on this BS, to a certain extent anyway. Many people are just pussies. To be, uh, frank. Training through a little soreness isn't going to kill anyone. But, I think that sometimes you can be sore to the point of relatively extreme pain but that pain not necessarily be indicative of injury. If the muscle is painful to touch or hurts even at rest, like to the point of disrupting sleep. I revert back to Madcow's suggestion to do light circuit work to get the blood pumping. I have found that recovery is expedited tremendously by using that technique.

 

[dave_r]

Its widely accepted that active rest, moderate / light exercise to induce blood flow does indeed help to reduce DOMS and speed up the healing process.

My point which may not have come across as I intended, is to not attack a muscle again directly with a high 'intensity' workout if its sore. Basically DOMS could be an indicator that you've created tiny tears in the muscle, by continually training through soreness this COULD escalate and potentially help create a tear, particularly if the emphsis is on eccentric contractions.

 

[jago25_98]

Well, the thing is that I train until things ache. Then when the parts I'm training that day are aching all over I can go home.

If I don't get this I don't feel satisfied.

This is what I'm interested in.

 

[Bob Smith]

Well, the thing is that I train until things ache. Then when the parts I'm training that day are aching all over I can go home.

If I don't get this I don't feel satisfied.

This is what I'm interested in.

Change your mindset.

 

[Madcow2]

Well, the thing is that I train until things ache. Then when the parts I'm training that day are aching all over I can go home.

If I don't get this I don't feel satisfied.

This is what I'm interested in.

Well, if you want to ache more than you want to gain strength or muscle, I think you are getting everything you want. That's not really the purpose of weighttraining but you can use it as you see fit.

Shit, you might want to take a 10lbs plate and have someone slap you around with it, maybe ram you in the ribs with the bar a few times rather than training abs. Metal tends to bruise and hurt pretty bad so it's a rock solid ache and more time efficient that just doing sets and reps.

In the end it's about being happy and fulfilled and if aching does it for you - by all means go to it.

 

[jago25_98]

How do you guys know when to stop?

 

[Madcow2]

You need to read the sticky "The best of Johnsmith" and "Original 5x5 Program" which I very very highly recommend you using rather than whatever it is you are doing now (providing your goal is to get big and strong anyway).

Here is another writeup of the 5x5 that I put together a month ago that I tried to make as clear and comprehesive as possible:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

This is the more novice program (single factor 5x5) and judging from the thread you are almost certain to do at least as well on this one:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4497774&postcount=15

This thread also has some good links including those above:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215

 

[Bob Smith]

How do you guys know when to stop?

When I have achieved the desired number of reps and sets I determined before going to the gym.

 

[CyniQ]

Well, the thing is that I train until things ache. Then when the parts I'm training that day are aching all over I can go home.

If I don't get this I don't feel satisfied.

This is what I'm interested in.

I think the guys are dicking with you a little. Or maybe I'm way off base myself. But I think that it's perfectly natural to seek the pain. To want to feel like you've been productive. Being so sore and stiff the morning after that you can barely get out of bed can be oddly gratifying. I think that everyone can see that.

The point is, that's not the way to get results. When you're first starting out it will work. Anything will. But eventually you'll plateau. Working harder and harder to "feel the burn" and get to the pain that the old saying says you must have if you wish to gain. You'll be, quite literally, spinning your wheels.

Follow BS and Cow's advice and you'll grow. You'll probably experience some of the pain that you think you need as well. Regardless, a few weeks into a solid program will get you some tangible results. Sore or not.