Sorry I doubted the 5x5

[AnimalMass]

The split is fine as is, but if you are concerned about hypertrophy specifically, then read my little tweak of the 5x5 which is in "AnimalMass' favorite routines" thread. I add some light arm work afterwards.

Matt

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

I am going to try the given training split starting next monday. I understand this more now and it makes a lot of sense. I'm still wondering if anyone has come up with a better split. I'm sure the given one works but its a little vague. The benching can be either incline or flat? The rows, are they standing upright rows, seated rows, bent over rows? Its kinda dumb that it just says "rows". I'm sure this will add weight to anyone but some muscles are relying on too little for max development I think. No traps? Bi's and Tri's rely on no isolation movements for their specific area? I'm wondering if you do this for say 4 weeks straight and then follow with say 3 weeks of other excersizes for detail and then back to the 5x5 if it would work better. Probably not tho considering the whole routine is about progression. Its interesting tho and I'll have to give it a try.

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

Animal mass, your thread is a little better at explaining it. I'm going to try your split next week. I'm very excite as these typical routines have gotten somewhat boring. Plus everyone is talking about what great results they are getting and that is the main goal. I keep everyone up to date with me, post my stats monday morning and see how I do from week to week, month to month. I'm very excited about this.

 

[Madcow2]

I am going to try the given training split starting next monday. I understand this more now and it makes a lot of sense. I'm still wondering if anyone has come up with a better split. I'm sure the given one works but its a little vague. The benching can be either incline or flat? The rows, are they standing upright rows, seated rows, bent over rows? Its kinda dumb that it just says "rows". I'm sure this will add weight to anyone but some muscles are relying on too little for max development I think. No traps? Bi's and Tri's rely on no isolation movements for their specific area? I'm wondering if you do this for say 4 weeks straight and then follow with say 3 weeks of other excersizes for detail and then back to the 5x5 if it would work better. Probably not tho considering the whole routine is about progression. Its interesting tho and I'll have to give it a try.

Rows are bentover. Monday/Friday are flat bench. Wednesday can be military or incline depending upon your choice. When someone says they want to do arms, I say add barbell curls and some type of tricept extension. Don't go adding much beyond that or trying to slip in additional work. This workout gets damn hard real fast and you'll end up dropping it (providing you set the weights properly). You can apply the methodology and customize a program but stick to the basics at first and don't mess with the squats.

Part of the beauty of using compound movements is that you don't need isolation work (which is largely a waste of time IMO). The best back work you can do is rowing, pulling from the floor, and chins - no human needs much more than that unless there is an acute issue affecting their performance of the lifts (throwing in tons of isolation work is what I call the shotgun approach). Don't get me wrong, it has it's place in rehab or balancing out an issue (I can develop an imbalance in my quads due to my hip structure - it results in the lateral traction of the kneecap over the patella - basically pain and tendonitis). You want to spend time getting better at the exercises that actually equate to progress rather than wasting limited recuperative resources spinning your wheels. I just gave my thoughts on this the other day: https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/405097

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ANIMALMASS - congrats to you and your wife on the upcomming baby. My boy is about 14 months right now. It's something that continues to get better and better. It adds so much to life. The best thing I've ever done by magnitudes. Best wishes to you and your family!

 

[Bob Smith]

I'm still wondering if anyone has come up with a better split.

If it aint broke, dont fix it. The 5x5 program has worked wonders for people for more than 30 years.

I'm sure the given one works but its a little vague. The benching can be either incline or flat? The rows, are they standing upright rows, seated rows, bent over rows? Its kinda dumb that it just says "rows".

Its assumed that people will choose only the most basic, compound movements. So for back that is barbell rows (JS style preferably). Chest is flat or low incline bench on Mon and Fri, with a higher incline or military press on Wed.

Bi's and Tri's rely on no isolation movements for their specific area?

Correct, no foo-foo isolation movements. Your tris will be hit pretty hard all week from the various pressing movements. Bis dont need a whole lot, but if you psychologically need to do some bi work, then do 2 sets of 8-12 reps for bar curls.

 

[AnimalMass]

Glad this thread is starting to take a turn for the better...

Thanks Madcow for the congrats - we are excited.

As far as thebenching goes...I have done the 5x5 and used it on lots of athlete myself, and think it is always better, if hypertrophy is the goal, to do flat bench one day, low incline the other day, and always standing military press on the wednesday workout.

Matt

 

[Grizzly]

I am going to try the given training split starting next monday. I understand this more now and it makes a lot of sense. I'm still wondering if anyone has come up with a better split. I'm sure the given one works but its a little vague. The benching can be either incline or flat? The rows, are they standing upright rows, seated rows, bent over rows? Its kinda dumb that it just says "rows". I'm sure this will add weight to anyone but some muscles are relying on too little for max development I think. No traps? Bi's and Tri's rely on no isolation movements for their specific area? I'm wondering if you do this for say 4 weeks straight and then follow with say 3 weeks of other excersizes for detail and then back to the 5x5 if it would work better. Probably not tho considering the whole routine is about progression. Its interesting tho and I'll have to give it a try.

I knew it! I fucking KNEW it had something to do with arms! It always does. First off, the rows specifically state "JS rows". What do you mean no traps? I'm pretty sure the deadlift is just about as good as it gets for trap development and they get a little more with the overhead presses. Bis and tris, like bob said, get PLENTY of work pulling and pressing. Ever notice how the guys with the smallest arms are the ones who put the most effort into them and they never grow? Think about it...

"I'm wondering if you do this for say 4 weeks straight and then follow with say 3 weeks of other excersizes for detail and then back to the 5x5 if it would work better. Probably not tho considering the whole routine is about progression. Its interesting tho and I'll have to give it a try"

I love this part! Ok, IIRC, you believe yourself to be the board/world's hardest gainer being a massive 170lbs at 5'10" or something like that. I might have gotten the stats wrong, but the hardgainer thing is right. Uhhhhh, so what exactly are you "detailing". You don't have any muscles to "detail".

Do you think some of your hardgainerness might be a function of an absolutely horrendous method of training? Do you find it odd that people who are significantly larger than you, with arms 4 inches bigger, do little to no direct arm work and, yet, somehow, their arms are much, much bigger than yours? Maybe, and it's just a wild suggestion, you should try the 5X5 EXACTLE AS IT IS WRITTEN and then see how it works. Trust me, 8 weeks away from your precious curl bar is not going to make your arms disappear. But, what the fuck, why even bother with the program. It obviously isn't very good. I mean, what the fuck do trainers of olympic athletes know?

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

Grizzly I see your points but you have to understand that the 5 x 5 is new to me. There are guys in the gym with arms 4 inches bigger than mine who have no clue what it is. You guys acting as if a bicept curl is useless and outdated is baffling to me? I no 0 guys at my gym who use this 5 x 5 method. They all use the basic routines that have been around forever and many of them have had great gains. You act as if all I care about is arms. I would have said "what about the quads?" if it didn't involve squats, but it does. I can't say that it doesn't involve chest BUT IT DOES. SO WHY WOULD I ASK ABOUT THESE THINGS? The workout I am using now, I go to the gym 4 times a week and try to hit everybody part within those 4 days. This is what I am used to. I am not knocking this system but I do have some questions before I try it. I feel as if using this training system can be a big advantage for me. Yet you are trying to flame me for asking questions?? Lay off the test, mabye you will gain a little more patience.

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

Also, Im up to 180 and pushing nearly 300lbs. I'm very proud of that considering where I started from a couple years ago that I have made some very good gains. Yes, I am not as massive as the rest but I don't really care. What am I detailing? Last year I got up to 190 which is heavy for me. I am naturally lean and enjoy the look. At 190, I look puffy and smooth, similar to everyone else. SO YES, I WILL DETAIL MY "SMALL" MUSCLES. If I wanted to look big and smooth I would be downing a can of crisco right now. Thats like asking why I would work my abs. Anyway, I enjoy the hobby and can always pull a hot bitch. So what is your point?

I would also like to thank you all, including grizzly, for your information. I have finally came to understand this method and I can't wait to try it.

 

[Grizzly]

Not on test. Patience is something I've never had, nor to which I aspire. Perhaps I let my frustrations with the "typical people/questions" spill over onto you. Then again, you came up with a typical response which led me to believe you're typical. If not, my appologies. I applaud your efforts to learn this. You won't be disappointed. In fact, I think you'll cease being a "hardgainer".

However, you make a mistake. Detail is not a function of doing "foo-foo" exercises. It is a function of bodyfat percentage. Thus, your assertion that your detailing exercises are that which keep you from being puffy is wrong. Not eating the tub of crisco is what keeps you from being puffy.

 

[Grizzly]

And, yes, one can make gains with the typical BB program. I did very well for several years using it.

Also, I was not flaming. I tend to speak a tad on the side of gruff. Don't like it? Don't care. (see what I mean?) In essence, my point was only to do the program. THE program. 8 weeks is nothing. A small fraction of an entire training life.

Ah, hell, now I'm losing my thoughts, so nevermind.

 

[GeaR_and_SauCe]

And, yes, one can make gains with the typical BB program. I did very well for several years using it.

Also, I was not flaming. I tend to speak a tad on the side of gruff. Don't like it? Don't care. (see what I mean?) In essence, my point was only to do the program. THE program. 8 weeks is nothing. A small fraction of an entire training life.

Ah, hell, now I'm losing my thoughts, so nevermind.

Your attitude doesn't bother me, the only thing that really did is how you insisted that I was obbsessed with arms or something stupid like that. I appreciate your insight but you really went off by implying that I was being typical. I know what you mean tho.

 

[Madcow2]

GeaR_and_SauCe: the best thing you are doing is using your head and learning. Every one of us here started totally ignorant. Most times you learn by what you see in life and unfortunately what one typically sees at the gym is garbage. I've spent time working with a BBer who earned his Pro card (huge arms, great physique, had a decent career). I listened to his training methodologies for 15 seconds and I instantly realized that he knew nothing more than the average noodle arm. It was a lot of drugs and good genetics. His PT clients never made any progress beyond novice level (except the ones who took drugs). There is way too much voodoo and misinformation running around and most people wouldn't know the truth if it bit them. Questioning information is important (that's how you got to 5x5 in the first place). Even if the questions are stupid and get you flamed, it doesn't matter as long as you are learning and improving. That said, apply brain first before asking questions and sift out the stupid ones if at all possible . Despite some of your questions, no one wrote you off as a lost cause and didn't reply or try to help (even if the tone was gruff). Genuine interest and effort is rewarded.