Voltrader
New Member
This is starting to feel like Alphagear all over again. Got a couple of reviewers, stalled on pics, one guy got a package. Blah,blah,blah, just hanging around.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
SPRING Labs is landing
- Thread starter SPRING Labs
- Start date
I was thinking Sterobolics myself. The grammar is a closer match.
ChaseQ
New Member
I see your point Mands. The COC is a useful tool in weeding out some of the scammers. But again its just a tool and I prefer a tool box full of tools to a single tool. In this case that tool box is information and loosely "knowledge".
And let me warn everyone. A true con artist will look for a group that puts its faith in a single system, they will simply figure out a simple way to manipulate it and the group will follow like lemmings right off the cliff.
I have several private labs that have provided amazing gear and service yet I have none of the information requested in the COC, So how did I figure out they are a solid UGL? Through the old system of trial and error.
The members have done a great job holding this labs feet to the fire by pressuring him to follow the COC, and I didnt need to jump on that bandwagon.
Instead I made an offer to try some of his gear. I was very EXPLICIT about being brutally honest with my review.
Side note: If you look at the labs Ive done this for in the past the overall results lean toward it not being good for the Lab. (More unsatisfactory reviews then positive.) i.e. Naps, Humana.
Lets do some critical thinking now...we can all agree information is knowledge. We know to be skeptical of all information. We know that using a members track record is the best indication of future actions.
So, its an added benefit to have the most information possible to weigh a decision. And at the end of the day its only the customer that has to make the decision. A member might decide to take the risk on a low cost source that hasnt followed every step of the COC but has sent out some quality gear and past some Labmax results. A calculated risk made based on the critical analysis of all the information provided.
P.S. Please dont anyone say, "Thats doesnt prove anything." Theres no system, code or review that proves anything! So it comes down to critical thinking. If Im willing to take a risk and provide feedback to help others then thats what Im willing to do for this board and its members.
Im just another crazy lab rat!
I see your point Mands. The COC is a useful tool in weeding out some of the scammers. But again its just a tool and I prefer a tool box full of tools to a single tool. In this case that tool box is information and loosely "knowledge".
And let me warn everyone. A true con artist will look for a group that puts its faith in a single system, they will simply figure out a simple way to manipulate it and the group will follow like lemmings right off the cliff.
I have several private labs that have provided amazing gear and service yet I have none of the information requested in the COC, So how did I figure out they are a solid UGL? Through the old system of trial and error.
The members have done a great job holding this labs feet to the fire by pressuring him to follow the COC, and I didnt need to jump on that bandwagon.
Instead I made an offer to try some of his gear. I was very EXPLICIT about being brutally honest with my review.
Side note: If you look at the labs Ive done this for in the past the overall results lean toward it not being good for the Lab. (More unsatisfactory reviews then positive.) i.e. Naps, Humana.
Lets do some critical thinking now...we can all agree information is knowledge. We know to be skeptical of all information. We know that using a members track record is the best indication of future actions.
So, its an added benefit to have the most information possible to weigh a decision. And at the end of the day its only the customer that has to make the decision. A member might decide to take the risk on a low cost source that hasnt followed every step of the COC but has sent out some quality gear and past some Labmax results. A calculated risk made based on the critical analysis of all the information provided.
P.S. Please dont anyone say, "Thats doesnt prove anything." Theres no system, code or review that proves anything! So it comes down to critical thinking. If Im willing to take a risk and provide feedback to help others then thats what Im willing to do for this board and its members.
Im just another crazy lab rat!
Not for nothing- it minimizes the importance of meeting requirements if people buy anyway, and this "win some lose some" attitude is what scammers feed on. A selective scammer is going to pump out top notch gear for the first period of time so a bunch of guys give good reviews.... and then the real fucking begins.
How is your review of one batch relevant for future batches? If scamming is going in down the road it just males the bottomless pit look more appealing
I see your point Mands. The COC is a useful tool in weeding out some of the scammers. But again its just a tool and I prefer a tool box full of tools to a single tool. In this case that tool box is information and loosely "knowledge".
And let me warn everyone. A true con artist will look for a group that puts its faith in a single system, they will simply figure out a simple way to manipulate it and the group will follow like lemmings right off the cliff.
I have several private labs that have provided amazing gear and service yet I have none of the information requested in the COC, So how did I figure out they are a solid UGL? Through the old system of trial and error.
The members have done a great job holding this labs feet to the fire by pressuring him to follow the COC, and I didnt need to jump on that bandwagon.
Instead I made an offer to try some of his gear. I was very EXPLICIT about being brutally honest with my review.
Side note: If you look at the labs Ive done this for in the past the overall results lean toward it not being good for the Lab. (More unsatisfactory reviews then positive.) i.e. Naps, Humana.
Lets do some critical thinking now...we can all agree information is knowledge. We know to be skeptical of all information. We know that using a members track record is the best indication of future actions.
So, its an added benefit to have the most information possible to weigh a decision. And at the end of the day its only the customer that has to make the decision. A member might decide to take the risk on a low cost source that hasnt followed every step of the COC but has sent out some quality gear and past some Labmax results. A calculated risk made based on the critical analysis of all the information provided.
P.S. Please dont anyone say, "Thats doesnt prove anything." Theres no system, code or review that proves anything! So it comes down to critical thinking. If Im willing to take a risk and provide feedback to help others then thats what Im willing to do for this board and its members.
Im just another crazy lab rat!
I see your point and I think you are missing my point. I also think you are trying to justify getting free gear. I promise you that you will recieve the upmost impeccable service, steller communication, great quality, turnaround time etc. etc. when a lab is trying to make a name for themselves especially domestic. International might slip on one of these things.
Now whether they are planning on being a legitmare provider or if they are pre-determined to pull a fast one down the road. I would say 99% of the time you will have no problems when receiving these samples.
Just realize your name when you give the thumbs up for a company becomes in question if things go wrong. Just be careful and full disclosure is always a must.
mands
ChaseQ
New Member
Brutus, Your example is every lab every time given enough time. How many labs have followed the COC and with time went to shit? Bio? How does the COC offer anything for what the labs going to do in the future? When everyone of these current labs that are jumping through these hoops go tits up what then?
Heres the only constant in this game, all labs go to shit given enough time and pics and stories arent going to stop that.
Chase please don't take my comments as attacking you. Just sharing my thoughts and what I personally think. You've been here a long time and know things are changing.
mands
mands
ChaseQ
New Member
I understand what youre saying and its an important aspect. So lets look at what information IS gained by trying some gear, NOT what isnt provided.
Samples sent out: We learn, They CAN send out gear, they CAN make quality gear, they CAN manage good T/A and customer service. (This isnt useful to know?)
LET ME BE CLEAR: The example I just gave isnt reflective of Spring. I have not received anything from Spring. So far I have only been talking to them and as I reported they were a little slow to return emails and PMs. As this changes, as always you guys will be updated.
If you guys want some system to guarantee a lab wont go to shit in the future, wont selectively scam people, wont send dirty gear, wont rip you off, youre all dreaming. There isnt a system for that. Best we have is gathering info and making your best guess and I believe any system that gathers the most amount of info is the best option.
Im grateful for the crazy lab rats that are willing to run some gear and share with this group their results. Ive done this at a great cost, financially and personally. Read the Naps forum for specifics. No COC would have avoided what happened to my friend but sharing that info DID help members here not end up in the same situation.
Ive received PMs from members that where grateful of the info that was given about Naps and some even offered to help my friend with hospital bills. This forum is made up of some of the most amazing people Ive ever had the honor to meet. Millard has created an amazing thing and Im happy to be part of it.
ChaseQ
New Member
Brother never a problem! I love being able to have an open dialog and share ideas and openly discuss them. This is how great things evolve.
What you guys have shared with me has helped me change and form alot of my ideas and opinions.
This is why Meso is truly the best forum. I could never give back to this forum and members what they have given me. But Ill keep trying!
Just so Im clear, this discussion is more of a general discussion and Im not meaning it to reflect or endorse Spring or any lab specifically.
It isn't about the specific things on the list. I personally think with the exception of encryption and secure email everything is of very little use in preventing people from getting fucked. The point is that they are willing to put in work to make the customer happy. A business willing to do inconveniences for the customer- things he may deem unnecessary and does them anyway shows character. It shows a willingness to earn our business, to do what it takes to foster a relationship.
Between that and dropping some free gear in a box for some guys and he will do all the work for you, what is easier? Correct- you are just providing them with a cop out alternative.
Funny you mention bio- there was no scoc. Mands vouched for them. Why the fuck do you think what you are doing bothers him?
I see your point Mands. The COC is a useful tool in weeding out some of the scammers. But again its just a tool and I prefer a tool box full of tools to a single tool. In this case that tool box is information and loosely "knowledge".
And let me warn everyone. A true con artist will look for a group that puts its faith in a single system, they will simply figure out a simple way to manipulate it and the group will follow like lemmings right off the cliff.
I have several private labs that have provided amazing gear and service yet I have none of the information requested in the COC, So how did I figure out they are a solid UGL? Through the old system of trial and error.
The members have done a great job holding this labs feet to the fire by pressuring him to follow the COC, and I didnt need to jump on that bandwagon.
Instead I made an offer to try some of his gear. I was very EXPLICIT about being brutally honest with my review.
Side note: If you look at the labs Ive done this for in the past the overall results lean toward it not being good for the Lab. (More unsatisfactory reviews then positive.) i.e. Naps, Humana.
Lets do some critical thinking now...we can all agree information is knowledge. We know to be skeptical of all information. We know that using a members track record is the best indication of future actions.
So, its an added benefit to have the most information possible to weigh a decision. And at the end of the day its only the customer that has to make the decision. A member might decide to take the risk on a low cost source that hasnt followed every step of the COC but has sent out some quality gear and past some Labmax results. A calculated risk made based on the critical analysis of all the information provided.
P.S. Please dont anyone say, "Thats doesnt prove anything." Theres no system, code or review that proves anything! So it comes down to critical thinking. If Im willing to take a risk and provide feedback to help others then thats what Im willing to do for this board and its members.
Im just another crazy lab rat!
Chase, come on. Knock it off. You're not being a help and you know it. You are of the belief that you are entitled to some free gear. Maybe you are? You don't need to blow smoke up mands and Bruti's asses.
You're attempt to explain it away as something else will garner support from guys like gear who are trolling for free shit. That's who came to mind when I read your lab rat remark along with your willing to be a martyr.
No disrespect but if you believe I am I'm giving equal measure as you certainly are looking out only for chase here while bullshitting and saying you are doing your duty for us.
Honestly, no bullshit, if you need a vial of test to get you through I'll be happy to give you a vial on the strength. Shoot me an addy.
ChaseQ
New Member
LMAO! Thanks bro! I think you have my addy, can you spare some tren?
You guys can take it however you want, But Ive been around long enough to tell you the little COC amounts to a handful of dog shit to the scammer with a brain that decides to come pillage the COC cult that is forming.(Just my opinion so dont get up in arms about it.) With the exception of PGP.
In my opinion It amounts to little more than a good commercial that is being interpreted as reliability.
Anyone that has purchased raws would know Im right. The suppliers will show you videos of "their" facility, produce all the documents you could want to see and rows of giant autoclaves! Truth be told, its nothing more than some guys bagging up who knows what.
Lets take Asia Pharm..Im sure they could handle the COC with flying colors but would that mean we should order from them? NO! Why? because enough old school guys have done the real work and shared their experiences.
The best labs Ive used offer nothing more than an email address. But if some pics and hoop jumping helps you sleep at night for all means do the dance.
How do you guys think we found good UGLs before this COC was created???
BB, you have a nose for sniffing scammers out. (I dont, I tend to fall on the trusting side.) Some are good at research and find these guys pulling shit on other sites. But if you dont see the value of some guys stepping up as lab rats and running some gear then youre drinking your own coolaid.
As far as being a martyr, Im glad you didnt have any Naps gear and end up in the hospital but youre not everyone. Ive gotten over a dozen emails from members here that had gotten in on Naps offer and didnt run the gear because they were provided with information that is was dirty. Sorry, no COC or flaming would have avoided that. Just some lab ratting! Oh my friends doctor bills came to just over $20K and he has a 12inch scar down his quad. The Doc said one day later and they would have removed the bulk of his quad muscle leaving him unable to walk.
(I bet Naps could fullfill the COC)
Again, the COC is a tool. Some find it more useful than others. Im waiting for it to prove itself. For me personally, pictures and fancy sales pitches dont carry alot of weight. (Again, I do use and love PGP)
If it makes it easier for everyone Ill do this. If I receive any gear from Spring and I decide to run it anyone who thinks the results would be of interest can PM me and Ill let them know what I thought.
At this point. Ive received nothing and Spring can be a little slow with their replies.
(Im always down for a debated even if its heated and passionate so please dont anyone take it as anything other than something Im passionate about and willing to debate.)
Hey Chase, did Naps ever pay your bro's hospital bill like he claimed he would?
johnnyBALLZ
New Member
The thing is Chase, most (not all) of the scammers are lazy and DON'T have brains!! The CoC isn't perfect but it makes it MUCH harder for the average scumbag looking to pull a couple thousand quick..
Private sources are private, they don't need to follow the CoC because they don't need to openly advertise here.. They have a customer base and a good reputation already. They are the best sources but new guys don't have access to them..
I'm suspicious of ANY source that would openly advertise here, IMO 90% of them are up to no good..
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Voltrader
New Member
Truth right there.....the only ones mainly are legit start ups and this is all they have and even then things unravel for multiple reasons.
ChaseQ
New Member
I agree with this 100%! It does exactly what you said and youre right! It is a tool and certainly eliminates the bottom of the barrel scammers.
I was a little harsh due to having my panties in a wad.
Ive talked to a couple of my private UGLs and told them if they decide to go public they should start here with our group. Maybe some day we can get that to happen.
Chase - I am going off the assumption that you are receiving free gear that you are sampling from these sources - is this correct? From reading your posts, it sounds like they are sending you freebies in exchange for your honest, public review. Correct?
If so, this completely defeats the purpose of an unbiased review, because the source will take extreme cautions to make sure that your review is skewed in their favor! Of course you'll get top notch gear, of course you'll get it relatively quickly, and of course they'll put a cherry on top of your sundae.
Don't take this personally, but anytime I know a review is being written based on comp'd gear, that review becomes about as useful to me as a review written by the lab owner himself - it is completely unreliable and absolutely lacks credibility.
If you want to serve the community through your reviews, then order completely anonymously.
A food critic doesn't call and make a reservation for "Food Critic John" as he knows he would get the best server, the best cut of steak, prepared by the best chef on the payroll. He orders anonymously, and attempts to get the same meal an unknown diner would get. He pays for his meal. There is a reason for that.
Secret shoppers don't walk into Walgreen's and say "hello I am here to secret shop your store and report your performance to your bosses". Same logic.
Again, don't take it personally. But reviewing free gear that the source knows your reviewing seems silly .... to me.
If so, this completely defeats the purpose of an unbiased review, because the source will take extreme cautions to make sure that your review is skewed in their favor! Of course you'll get top notch gear, of course you'll get it relatively quickly, and of course they'll put a cherry on top of your sundae.
Don't take this personally, but anytime I know a review is being written based on comp'd gear, that review becomes about as useful to me as a review written by the lab owner himself - it is completely unreliable and absolutely lacks credibility.
If you want to serve the community through your reviews, then order completely anonymously.
A food critic doesn't call and make a reservation for "Food Critic John" as he knows he would get the best server, the best cut of steak, prepared by the best chef on the payroll. He orders anonymously, and attempts to get the same meal an unknown diner would get. He pays for his meal. There is a reason for that.
Secret shoppers don't walk into Walgreen's and say "hello I am here to secret shop your store and report your performance to your bosses". Same logic.
Again, don't take it personally. But reviewing free gear that the source knows your reviewing seems silly .... to me.
There are glowing reviews on this board and others from veterans about gear that failed labmax tests. Test P as Primo, Mast P as Mast E, Deca as Mast P, and that's just the ones that actually contained gear and were tested by me. Plenty of private lab's gear has been sent to labmax where if failed mass spec. Half you vets don't have a clue what you're putting in your bodies. You pin some shit from a guy you know only from email, and if it makes you big and strong and hard, you believe what's on the label. Then you tell others and give them the addy so they can buy the same shit. Nothing personal, but your method is at least as flawed as the COC.
Except you gave Naps a pass after he said he would take care of your friend, even though he refused to recall the dangerous gear "over a dozen" people thanked you for warning them about. How many people who bought from the Naps site never got the warning?
I agree the COC isn't perfect. It's not even very good, but it's more than the UGLs have had to deal with in a long time. At the moment it's working pretty well. Sure they will adapt, but so will we. One of the things we are currently missing is a code for handling injuries caused by bad gear.
And no, Naps would never have been able to pass the COC. He's too used to the status he gets on the paid boards, and would have bristled at being called out. The insults would have flown and Naps would have written us off.
ChaseQ
New Member
Okay, so many assumptions and little critical thinking...
To your entire food critic analogy.
You Can Ditch the Wig, Food Critic, We Know Who You Are | VICE United States So now that we know thats wrong...but whats it matter, we arent talking about food.
Okay so let me see if we can simplify this to its most basic unarguable facts...
COC=someone can post some pics and open an email account.
Running gear from UGL = (Even comped gear) 1.The UGL can produce quality gear. 2. The lab can ship gear 3. the lab can respond and ship with a reasonable T/A.
Like I said, different tools. More than one way to skin a cat.
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