unt0ld
New Member
I dont see it to be overtraining. My muscles can handle it. Esp on juice.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Squating 3x a week is HARD!
- Thread starter unt0ld
- Start date
Grizzly
New Member
hackskii said:
Like I said in another thread, read the goddamned stickies. Namely, the tribute to JS sticky. Seek and ye shall find.
edit- And that sure is some shitty logic. "I've never seen anyone in a gym do it." That's friggin' great. I've only seen one other person in my gym squat. I've seen a lot of bench press and cable crossovers though. I guess that means squats aren't good because no one does them and the amazingly effective
cable crossover is the way to build mounds of muscle. I've seen one guy deadlift, too. Same guy I've seen squat, though.
unt0ld
New Member
Grizzly said:Like I said in another thread, read the goddamned stickies. Namely, the tribute to JS sticky. Seek and ye shall find.
edit- And that sure is some shitty logic. "I've never seen anyone in a gym do it." That's friggin' great. I've only seen one other person in my gym squat. I've seen a lot of bench press and cable crossovers though. I guess that means squats aren't good because no one does them and the amazingly effective
rofl
Grizzly said:Like I said in another thread, read the goddamned stickies. Namely, the tribute to JS sticky. Seek and ye shall find.
edit- And that sure is some shitty logic. "I've never seen anyone in a gym do it." That's friggin' great. I've only seen one other person in my gym squat. I've seen a lot of bench press and cable crossovers though. I guess that means squats aren't good because no one does them and the amazingly effective
Ok, thank-you again for another one of those information filled posts from you....NOT!!!!!
How in the hell am I going to find a 3 time a week squat benefit in a sticky?
Your posts seem to be more based on sarcasm, negativity and pointless banter than anything of useful information.
Super mod huh?
What a joke, where in the overeating section?
I take your posts with little interest or attention, clearly by one of your post awhile ago on diets I decided then you have little knowledge and little to no information other than insults to share.
Hey, there are a million of those types on many boards.
At least in my posts I tend to give an explanation to either my reasoning or rationale.
Yours are pessimistic, belittling, trash posts.
This tells me much about your character and again your posts I take very lightly due to the lack of information and knowledge.
unt0ld
New Member
I like squating 3 times a week.
I wouldnt want to do any less.
I love to squat.
I wouldnt want to do any less.
I love to squat.
unt0ld said:
Good for you then do it.
Do you notice any additional benefits?
Stronger?
More vascular?
Bigger?
Can you explain the percent of 1 rep max on the days you do squats?
What kind of intensity are you using?
Grizzly
New Member
hackskii said:
If that's what you want to think, go right ahead. Nothing wrong with being wrong. If it makes you feel any better, I don't like you either.
edit- And don't get mad at me. You're the one who tried to justify his point with fallacious reasoning. If that's not flame worthy, I don't know what is.
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Grizzly
New Member
hackskii said:
Here ya go, champ. Straight from a sticky.
There are basically two accepted theories in the world of weight training. One is called Super compensation (or Single Factor Theory), and the other is called the Fitness Fatigue Theory (or Dual Factor Theory). Bodybuilding tends to follow the Super compensation way of thinking, while virtually every field of strength and conditioning, athletics, etc. follows the Dual Factor Theory. The reasoning that almost everyone involved in strength training adheres to the Dual Factor Theory is because there is scientific proof that it works, not to mention that the eastern bloc countries that have adhered to this theory have kicked America's ass at every Olympics since the 1950s.
Bodybuilding, for years, has basically ignored Dual Factor Theory and opted for Single Factor Theory training. In the following paragraphs, I hope to prove to you why Dual Factor Theory should be accepted, taught, and adhered to in the world of bodybuilding as well as all other athletes concerned with strength and conditioning.
Note: The one exception to the rule of "all bodybuilding programs based on Super compensation" is Bryan Haycock's HST, which, from Bryan's own mouth, says that it wasn't based on dual factor theory, although he hit it dead-on, on all points. What I didn't care for personally with HST is that the same amount of importance is placed on the 15-rep phase and the negative rep phase as with the 10 rep and 5 rep phases. The thickness that rep ranges in the 3-8 range provide are far more impressive to me personally than those who focus on 12-15 rep schemes and countless negatives. I also wasn't excited about working the entire body in one workout. The CNS drain was unbelievable. However, in saying that, HST is the best I've seen compared to everything else out there, and I did make good progress on it.
The Super compensation Theory has been, in the bodybuilding community, the most widely accepted school of thought. However, people are beginning to see it as a bit too simplistic (the strength and conditioning and athletic movements have never accepted this practice). The theory itself is based on the fact that training depletes certain substances (like glycogen, and slowing protein synthesis). Training is seen as catabolic, draining the body of its necessary nutrients and fun stuff. So to grow, according to the theory, the body must then be rested for the appropriate/ optimal amount of time, AND, it (the body) must be supplied with all the nutrients it lost. If both of these things are done correctly, then theoretically your body will increase protein synthesis and store more nutrients than it originally had! (i.e. your muscles will be bigger!)
So obviously the most important part of this theory is TIMING! (Specifically concerning the rest period). But that's where the problem comes in. "If the rest period was too short, then the individual would not be completely recovered and as such the training would deplete the substance even more, which over a period of time would result in overtraining and a loss of performance. If the rest interval were too long then the training would lose its stimulus property, and the individual would recover completely and lose the window of opportunity to provide the stimulus again. If the interval is optimal then improvements surely follow" (AF).
"So, given the one factor theory (Super compensation), which looks at physical ability as, of course, one factor, you are left with the problem of timing workouts to correspond to the super compensation wave... anything sooner or later will lead to a useless workout"(JS).
Another issue concerning the Super compensation/ Single Factor Theory is that of FAILURE. Almost every program that utilizes this type of training advocates the use of muscle/ CNS failure, and then fully rest, and then beat the crap out of your muscles again, then rest, etc (I'm referring to the "work one body part per day, six days per week" program as well as HIT, popularized by Mike Mentzer). The issue is that it has now been proven that total failure is not necessarily needed for optimal growth. It has been shown that leaving a rep or two in the tank can and will yield the same results AND therefore a shorter rest period will be needed and less accumulation of fatigue will still be present by the time the next training session rolls around.
A Better Way
The Dual Factor Theory, also called Fitness Fatigue Theory is somewhat more complex than the Super compensation Theory. The theory is based on the fact that and individual's fitness and fatigue are totally independent of each other. This theory is entirely dependant on one's base conditioning (or physical preparedness or fitness). The thing is, when you have a high level of fitness (or conditioning/ preparedness) this level changes fairly slowly. This is because over the short term fitness does not fluctuate often. (However, fatigue can change (increase or decrease) fairly quickly when compared to fitness).
"The theory works like equilibrium in that training will have an immediate effect on the body (similar to super compensation). This effect is the combination of fatigue and gain (again, remember the equilibrium thing). So after a workout, because of the stimulus that training provides, preparedness/conditioning/fitness increases (gain) but at the same time will decrease due to fatigue from the training."
"So, the outcome of the training session is the result of both the positive and negative consequences of the training session. These two outcomes depend on time. By striking the correct balance, fatigue should be large in extent but short in how long it lasts. Gain on the other hand should be moderate, however, and is longer in duration. Typically the relationship is 1:3, if fatigue lasts x amount of time then gain lasts 3x amount of time."
"Given the two factor theory, which separates physical fitness or preparedness and fatigue, you see that the timing of individual workouts is unimportant to long term gains (unlike Super compensation)... in other words regardless of whether or not fatigue is or is not present, fitness can and will still be increased" (which is the goal)...
So what you get concerning the two-factor theory is a period of peaking fatigue (maybe 6 weeks), followed by a period of rest (maybe 2 weeks deloading, then one or two weeks of total rest). You view entire weeks and maybe months, as you would have viewed just one workout with the single factor theory. For example, in the single factor theory, one workout represents a period of fatigue. But, in the two-factor theory, 6 weeks would represent a period of fatigue. In the single factor theory, a day or two (up to a week) represents a period of rest. But in the two-factor theory, up to four weeks may represent a period rest.
"What is important to note is that there is almost universal agreement among scientists and athletes and coaches in all sports EXCEPT bodybuilding that the two factor theory is correct and the single factor theory is not correct and is in fact suitable only for beginners to follow when planning training."
Grizzly
New Member
Or we can use logic. Since science has demonstrated that more frequent stimulus yields better results, it's pretty obvious that more frequent squatting is more productive.
If you squat/work legs 1X/wk, you provide them with growth stimulus 52X/yr.
If I squat 3X/wk, then I have provided my legs with 156 workouts/growth stimuli in a year.
If you squat/work legs 1X/wk, you provide them with growth stimulus 52X/yr.
If I squat 3X/wk, then I have provided my legs with 156 workouts/growth stimuli in a year.
unt0ld
New Member
Grizzly said:
hell yea
Grizzly said:
Ah, excellent post.
This is much better defending your position than attacking mine.
Insults yield far less information than defending ones opinion with some intellect.
You did a fantastic job here.
I appreciate that.
Here is another post on duel factor training by a friend of mine called Big on another board.
Dual Factor Training-----------------------
Dual Factor training is extremely effective for intermediate/advanced trainees. Dual Factor is essentially about volume loading, then deloading, then intensity loading. The volume loading brings you to the brink of overtraining (over-reaching), the gains of which are seen with a deload and intensity phase. The intensity phase allows the lifter to increase the weight closer and closer to their maximum with lower volume. The rebound effect from the volume phase compounds the effects of a low volume, high intensity training routine during the intensity phase. Dual Factor training is not a specific training program, but rather a methodology of how to work out your training programs.
First of all, let's briefly explain some key elements of Dual Factor training:
Volume - the amount of work you're doing (typically the number of work sets).
Progressive Resistence - the idea of increasing the load over time (either by increased weight, increased reps, increased sets, decreased rest periods or a combination of these).
Periodisation - Changing up your training program (generally with respect to volume and intensity).
Loading - Using progressive resistence to (over a period of time) push yourself to your limits and beyond (i.e. to the brink of overtraining, but without actually overtraining).
Deloading - Backing off, enabling your body to recover.
Intensity - Traditionally speaking, this is purely a percentage of your 1RM. However, typically people refer to intensity as how close to failure you go.
Now let's talk about an example implementation of a Dual Factor routine. I generally go for moderate volume when loading, but keeping volume constant, while increasing the weight each week. I then go for low volume for the deload, and stick to the low volume while increasing the weight for the intensity phase.
An example might be to do this while loading for 4 weeks (any sets listed are work sets only - sufficient warm-ups should be done before this):
Mon-Squats 5x5, Rows 5x5
Wed-Bench 5x5, OHP 5x5
Fri-Squats 5x5, Chins 5x5
As you can see, the volume is moderate (10 sets per workout, 3 times a week) and the work is based purely around core lifts NOT done to failure (this enables us to squat twice a week in the volume phase). After 4 weeks of this, starting off light, increasing the weight each session, you will be at the brink of overtraining. That's the time to deload. We drop down to a lighter volume, keeping the weights the same as the 5x5, but drop down to 3 reps, and drop down to two sessions a week:
Mon-Squats 3x3, Rows 3x3
Thu-Bench 3x3, OHP 1x3, Chins 1x3
You then continue to increase the weights each week, giving you the intensity loading. Once you hit a wall on the intensity phase, you could test your maxes and then go back to the volume phase (or perhaps spend a week doing lighter assistance work if you need an additional deload). The rebound effect from the near-overtraining of the volume phase will multiply the gains you will get from the intensity phase.
So for example, taking the Monday squat session, you might do this:
Volume Phase:
Week 1 - 140kgx5x5 (this should feel fairly easy)
Week 2 - 145kgx5x5
Week 3 - 150kgx5x5 (this will be where your previous 5x5 max was - usually the same as your 8RM)
Week 4 - 155kgx5x5 (this will push you just past your previous best)
Deload:
Week 5 - 155kgx3x3 (keep the weight the same but reduce the overall load and frequency for a deload)
Intensity Phase:
Week 6 - 160kgx3x3
Week 7 - 165kgx3x3
Week 8 - 170kgx3x3
You might then test your maxes, and then start again with the 5x5 with (say) 145-150kg in your first week.
Pick your weights conservatively. It is better to start too light and have to add 10kg the first couple of weeks to your lifts, or to add an extra week or two into the loading phase than to start too heavy and end up hitting failure on the second or third week with nowhere to go. But ensure that by the end of the volume phase you are practically begging for the deload. If you aren't screaming for a deload and aren't close to (or at) failure by the 5th rep of the 5th set on the 4th week, add an extra week to the volume phase. Feel free to adjust the loading too. Some people like to start off quite heavy and load with smaller increments, whereas other people prefer to start lighter and load with heavier increments.
This is dual factor training (incorporating loading, deloading and periodisation). It will give you extremely good strength gains, and if you're eating enough, the mass gains will be huge too. However, it is intended for intermediate-advanced trainees who already have a good strength base. MOST more junior lifters (I class these as people who cannot yet deadlift twice their bodyweight) would be better off on a low volume single factor program which will allow them to increase the weight each week. Extremely advanced trainees should be doing a conjugated periodisation program (such as WSB), as the heavy weights they will be lifting are likely NOT to allow them to do that much volume without killing themselves on week 1 of the volume phase.
AnimalMass
New Member
hackskii,
First off, that post Grizz posted was my words, and second, I agree with your friend's post about Dual Factor Training as well.
What you have to understand is that for the most part, the athletes who have squatted 3x per week are strength athletes - not bodybuilders. We care primarily if not only about strength gains - and for that, squatting multiple times per week is best.
I believe it's best for hypertrophy as well, but I can't prove it, nor do I care really. You state that you don't like the look of the OLY lifters, but first off, they aren't bodybuilders, and second, ALL of them have enormous legs. So I'm not sure what you don't agree with here.
Do they have the upper body of a pillow biting bodybuilder, hyped up on gear and mass quantities of growth hormone? No. But why would they?
Matt
First off, that post Grizz posted was my words, and second, I agree with your friend's post about Dual Factor Training as well.
What you have to understand is that for the most part, the athletes who have squatted 3x per week are strength athletes - not bodybuilders. We care primarily if not only about strength gains - and for that, squatting multiple times per week is best.
I believe it's best for hypertrophy as well, but I can't prove it, nor do I care really. You state that you don't like the look of the OLY lifters, but first off, they aren't bodybuilders, and second, ALL of them have enormous legs. So I'm not sure what you don't agree with here.
Do they have the upper body of a pillow biting bodybuilder, hyped up on gear and mass quantities of growth hormone? No. But why would they?
Matt
AnimalMass said:
Appreciate you comments even though you never returned my PM asking you for more details on this matter.
I took that as you dont have time for me.
Oh well.
I shook the carpet and got the dirt out (info).
I liked the article alot.
I have some issues with doing many of the same exercises a week and this happens to be injury and or muscle imballance.
Olympic athletes do have massive legs and core, (I like this aspect), but they have terrible symetry.
I also feel that the muscle imballance is an injury waiting to happen.
I was inquiring to be more rounded in routines.
I was not really debating strength hypertrophy vs. bodybuilding hypertrophy like you suggest.
I feel that squatting 3 times a week takes more time and dedication than I am willing to spend in the gym.
Also, I am almost 47 years old and recovery is an issue here with "ME"!
If I was to do this routine, should I leave more gas in the tank cuz I am older?
Should I alternate from Olympic to powerlifting squat's to vary the posterior chain for strength?
Most of this is geared for guys doing specific exercises and of the younger crowd.
I don't have issue with you or grizzly but only issue is lack of information and how this can be incourperated to others that might be willing to try this routine, but limit the information.
Hope you understand this.
Animal, if you are strong then cool, if you want to share with others then even better.
Collective knowledge is an awesome thing.
I am not the bad guy here, trust me.
I have never understood Olympic training.
I love the natural competitor, even better I love the natural guy that kicks ass on the assisted guys.
Good form is power and safer for injury.
Most people will never use good form and thus limit their potential.
Again, all I am after is information, seems I got it, but I don’t feel that I have to jump through hoops to get this information.
This limits my own ability to grow and gain knowledge.
This is collective.
Also I love to learn, I am not opinionated where as to not give in to what is right or wrong, and I try many things.
As you see I only can comment on what has worked for me, HIT.
Again I appreciate all the information given; it has NOT fallen of deaf ears.
If you have taken offense to my posts grizzly or animal, please accept my apologies.
This was not my intention to incite or arouse.
Scott
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AnimalMass
New Member
Hackskii,
Couple of things - I can tell you are well intentioned, which is great. However, please understand that you sent me a PM one day ago and that I can't answer all of them in 24hours as I work a full time job AND I'm a pro strongman - all weekend I was out of town judging a strongman competition, so I can't constantly get on a steroid board and answer questions at a moments' notice. Second - I would rather answer training questions on the baord - not as a PM - that way everyone learns. That is what I was trying to do here.
If you want good programs - they are in the stickies - (top of the training board) - most of them are written by me or from a couple of the other top strength coaches in the nation - we're not talking internet jockies here.
I disagree with your comment about "muscle imbalances" in the OLY lifter. They have perfect balance. They are strong squatters, pullers, and pressers - they have an incredibly strong core and they are as flexible as a gymnast. That's not a muscle imbalance. They are also perfectly symmetrical.
I think what you mean is that their lower body is typically much bigger than their upper body - that isn't a muscle imbalance and it isn't a symmetry issue - they have built the perfect body for their sport - not for bodybuilding.
Hypertrophy just means "muscle growth" - no more no less - for bodybuilders it's priority number 1 - for strength athletes it is never the number 1 priority, and sometimes isn't even wanted if you need to stay in a specific weight class. Now strength training builds a little different kind of hypertrophy than typical bodybuilding sets in the 10-15 rep range does - but that's another topic.
What I would take from all of this is that if you are a 47 year old natural man looking to get bigger and stronger and stay healthy over the next 15 years then I would learn how to properly olympic squat, and I would squat probably twice per week and fairly heavy. I wouldn't worry about power squatting unless your knees give you serious trouble (and if they do, you probably aren't olympic squatting correctly).
Matt
Couple of things - I can tell you are well intentioned, which is great. However, please understand that you sent me a PM one day ago and that I can't answer all of them in 24hours as I work a full time job AND I'm a pro strongman - all weekend I was out of town judging a strongman competition, so I can't constantly get on a steroid board and answer questions at a moments' notice. Second - I would rather answer training questions on the baord - not as a PM - that way everyone learns. That is what I was trying to do here.
If you want good programs - they are in the stickies - (top of the training board) - most of them are written by me or from a couple of the other top strength coaches in the nation - we're not talking internet jockies here.
I disagree with your comment about "muscle imbalances" in the OLY lifter. They have perfect balance. They are strong squatters, pullers, and pressers - they have an incredibly strong core and they are as flexible as a gymnast. That's not a muscle imbalance. They are also perfectly symmetrical.
I think what you mean is that their lower body is typically much bigger than their upper body - that isn't a muscle imbalance and it isn't a symmetry issue - they have built the perfect body for their sport - not for bodybuilding.
Hypertrophy just means "muscle growth" - no more no less - for bodybuilders it's priority number 1 - for strength athletes it is never the number 1 priority, and sometimes isn't even wanted if you need to stay in a specific weight class. Now strength training builds a little different kind of hypertrophy than typical bodybuilding sets in the 10-15 rep range does - but that's another topic.
What I would take from all of this is that if you are a 47 year old natural man looking to get bigger and stronger and stay healthy over the next 15 years then I would learn how to properly olympic squat, and I would squat probably twice per week and fairly heavy. I wouldn't worry about power squatting unless your knees give you serious trouble (and if they do, you probably aren't olympic squatting correctly).
Matt
jasthace
New Member
AnimalMass said:
I dont know about that statement,I would'nt say that to this guy
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/Markus-Ruhl-2.jpg
or this guy
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/gregkovacs2.jpg
or any of these guys
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/Jean-Pierre-Fux-5.jpg
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/Dorian-Yates-2.jpg
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/victor-richards3.jpg
http://www.joe0.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/victor-richards.jpg
http://www.fit4lifept.com/files/ronnie_coleman___steven.jpg
But you probably would cause you're a professional strongman and much bigger and stronger than any of them.
@hackskii
The most important thing about the 3 times per week is, you don´t bust your ass out every time. The first few weeks, you have to use a "comfortable" weight. This gets you accustomed to the new training style. Then, you kick it extreme to the wall for 1 or 2 weeks, then you deload, and repeat. Nothing magic, works well.
The most important thing about the 3 times per week is, you don´t bust your ass out every time. The first few weeks, you have to use a "comfortable" weight. This gets you accustomed to the new training style. Then, you kick it extreme to the wall for 1 or 2 weeks, then you deload, and repeat. Nothing magic, works well.
AnimalMass
New Member
jasthace said:
Wow - can't take a joke eh? BTW, did you retort my statement about bodybuilders being gay by posting semi-homoerotic pictures of your favorite bodybuilders in string bikinis and black and purple spandex onezies?
Let me see if I can find some of those pictures of Svend Karlson, Magnus Ver, and Magnus Samuelson from the sleep-over romp we all had a few months ago...
Matt
jasthace
New Member
AnimalMass said:
Ok thanks big boy,I'll wait up
Most likely you didnt do it right. People think that because you lift more than 1x/wk you are automatically overtraining. What a load of crap! You would only overtrain if you didnt know what you were doing. And like AnimalMass said, the program IS periodized.hackskii said:
The 5x5 has you squatting 3x/wk and produces great results for people. HST has you squat 3x/wk and people make incredible gains on that program.
Pretty weak, if you ask me.
AnimalMass and JohnSmith can speak with more 1st-hand knowledge of this, but I would bet that injuries for Olympic lifters are less common than injuries for BBers or PLers.
LMAO!!!AnimalMass said:
