Straight sets vs. ramping sets for hypertrophy

[Deadp007]

Did you ever give this a go?

And if so, what were your experiences?

I do everything like this now... I don't always stick to his rep range but every exercise I take multiple sets to mechanical failure.
I have noticed more growth than ever, but maybe that's the trt + primo... regardless I'm sticking to it.

 

[Megadick3000]

I do everything like this now... I don't always stick to his rep range but every exercise I take multiple sets to mechanical failure.
I have noticed more growth than ever, but maybe that's the trt + primo... regardless I'm sticking to it.

So basically, your doing 2 working sets per exercise, to mechanical failure? Are you adding intensifiers like drop sets, negative reps, or partial reps? Or is this just full ROM straight set to failure only?

How many of these working sets a week per muscle group are you doing? Are you splitting it in a PPL like manner as Mac does or are you following a different split and if so what?

I think mac says he goes for 6 exercises per workout, which yields 12 working sets per workout.

I ask as im looking to change shit up, im at the peak of a mesocycle with high volume and dont feel like i got much out of it for the progressively longer workouts i had to put in as volume ramped up.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

So basically, your doing 2 working sets per exercise, to mechanical failure? Are you adding intensifiers like drop sets, negative reps, or partial reps? Or is this just full ROM straight set to failure only?

How many of these working sets a week per muscle group are you doing? Are you splitting it in a PPL like manner as Mac does or are you following a different split and if so what?

I think mac says he goes for 6 exercises per workout, which yields 12 working sets per workout.

I ask as im looking to change shit up, im at the peak of a mesocycle with high volume and dont feel like i got much out of it for the progressively longer workouts i had to put in as volume ramped up.

I use 2 failure sets per movement, 6 movements per day as my base. When gear and food are pushing, intensity is up with rest pause, drop sets, etc as needed/allowable. But I've found very few people who can't increase baseline intensity before adding intensifiers/past failure mechanisms. I've sort of become addicted to regimented, logged progress. For better or worse.

 

[Tenman2b]

I use 2 failure sets per movement, 6 movements per day as my base. When gear and food are pushing, intensity is up with rest pause, drop sets, etc as needed/allowable. But I've found very few people who can't increase baseline intensity before adding intensifiers/past failure mechanisms. I've sort of become addicted to regimented, logged progress. For better or worse.

You're 6 movements per day....Would that be 2 Quads, 2 Hamstring, 2 Calves? Or 6 Movements for Quads? Or if not PPL split, how does it break down?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

You're 6 movements per day....Would that be 2 Quads, 2 Hamstring, 2 Calves? Or 6 Movements for Quads? Or if not PPL split, how does it break down?

Calves are generally tacked on extra. I use a PPL. A bro split might be more movements/sets per day. 6 movements covers pecs/Delts/tris, back/bis, quads/hams on their respective days.

 

[Deadp007]

I use 2 failure sets per movement, 6 movements per day as my base. When gear and food are pushing, intensity is up with rest pause, drop sets, etc as needed/allowable. But I've found very few people who can't increase baseline intensity before adding intensifiers/past failure mechanisms. I've sort of become addicted to regimented, logged progress. For better or worse.

just to kinda clarify this:
"baseline intensity" -- do you mean "intensity" as in:
A)How heavy (% of 1RM)? OR
B)How hard you work. Ex. lowering rest between sets, rep tempo, pre-exhausting muscle.......

You recommend that one should increase baseline intensity 1st before adding intensifiers/past failure mechanisms, how do we know when we should add intensifiers/past failure mechanisms?

Also, just want to be on the same page.
1)Muscle failure:
Unable to perform another concentric rep
2)Mechanical failure:
Can no longer use "proper" full ROM form.

If one does hit enough baseline intensity then would you recommend different intensity intensifiers/past failure mechanisms to TRT (and TRT+) lifters vs geared vs natural lifters (say of all other factors being the same...years training, age etc)?

Sorry about this but at times I need to be talked to like a 5 year old water head.
Is this correct (and are there any more)?
Intensifiers/Past Failure Mechanisms:
C)Rest/Pause
D)Drop Sets
E)Partials
F)Mechanical Failure Reps (using "body english"... ex. curl body swing)
G)Forced Reps (ex. spotter helps just a bit for set/rep completion)
H)Negatives (painfully slow eccentric on a weight you cannot perform concentrically)

 

[Megadick3000]

just to kinda clarify this:
"baseline intensity" -- do you mean "intensity" as in:
A)How heavy (% of 1RM)? OR
B)How hard you work. Ex. lowering rest between sets, rep tempo, pre-exhausting muscle.......

You recommend that one should increase baseline intensity 1st before adding intensifiers/past failure mechanisms, how do we know when we should add intensifiers/past failure mechanisms?

Also, just want to be on the same page.
1)Muscle failure:
Unable to perform another concentric rep
2)Mechanical failure:
Can no longer use "proper" full ROM form.

If one does hit enough baseline intensity then would you recommend different intensity intensifiers/past failure mechanisms to TRT (and TRT+) lifters vs geared vs natural lifters (say of all other factors being the same...years training, age etc)?

Sorry about this but at times I need to be talked to like a 5 year old water head.
Is this correct (and are there any more)?
Intensifiers/Past Failure Mechanisms:
C)Rest/Pause
D)Drop Sets
E)Partials
F)Mechanical Failure Reps (using "body english"... ex. curl body swing)
G)Forced Reps (ex. spotter helps just a bit for set/rep completion)
H)Negatives (painfully slow eccentric on a weight you cannot perform concentrically)

I could be wrong, but i think what Mac is saying is that increasing weight on the bar to increase intensity, until one reaches a point where you simply cant increase the weight and still hit desired rep range, at which point incorporation of intensifier techniques becomes warranted until weight can be increased on the bar again down the road at which point you would stop using intensifiers and focus on progressing strength until another plateau hits, then go back to incorporating intensifiers.

But i could be misunderstanding him on this.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

I could be wrong, but i think what Mac is saying is that increasing weight on the bar to increase intensity, until one reaches a point where you simply cant increase the weight and still hit desired rep range, at which point incorporation of intensifier techniques becomes warranted until weight can be increased on the bar again down the road at which point you would stop using intensifiers and focus on progressing strength until another plateau hits, then go back to incorporating intensifiers.

But i could be misunderstanding him on this.

It's really for two reasons.

One is as you state above. I can't imagine I'll want to press 5 plates consistently, but eventually I'll get there strength wise. At that point I May stop upping weight and add "volume" via rest pause or drops.

But also as a means to just simply add "volume" without adding sets when I can tolerate more volume/recovery is thru the roof on high food, gear, etc.

"Intensity" isn't about load but about a proximity to failure. I think most, like 95% of people in the gym, can benefit most by ingraining what mechanical failure is, get good at achieving it, and working there for a while before anything beyond failure/intensity techniques/more volume are needed.

 

[Megadick3000]

It's really for two reasons.

One is as you state above. I can't imagine I'll want to press 5 plates consistently, but eventually I'll get there strength wise. At that point I May stop upping weight and add "volume" via rest pause or drops.

But also as a means to just simply add "volume" without adding sets when I can tolerate more volume/recovery is thru the roof on high food, gear, etc.

"Intensity" isn't about load but about a proximity to failure. I think most, like 95% of people in the gym, can benefit most by ingraining what mechanical failure is, get good at achieving it, and working there for a while before anything beyond failure/intensity techniques/more volume are needed.

Okay Mac, so when your saying mechanical failure you are explicitly meaning failure to complete full ROM repetitions?

At what point does something become rest-pause?

Example. Im pushing a bench press. I reach full ROM failure as i try to push the bar up, stalling about 50% of the way up. I bring the bar back down, wait 3 seconds, then push out a full ROM repetition. Is this a rest-pause rep now? Do you have a criteria in your mind of where pushing last reps, and becoming rest-pause intensifier reps, is drawn at? When do i say its truly failure, knowing that if i wait just a few seconds (outside of the tempo used for all the preceeding reps) i can squeeze another rep, or maybe 2.

I know generally rest pause reps are longer rests, but where do i draw the line? If i wait 5 seconds? If i wait 10 seconds? Or is an interruption in the tempo to complete a rep the defining border between regular reps and rest-pause?

I ask as i can see multiple different points i could say im at failure, given that i can often push another rep if i wait just a couple seconds.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Okay Mac, so when your saying mechanical failure you are explicitly meaning failure to complete full ROM repetitions?

At what point does something become rest-pause?

Example. Im pushing a bench press. I reach full ROM failure as i try to push the bar up, stalling about 50% of the way up. I bring the bar back down, wait 3 seconds, then push out a full ROM repetition. Is this a rest-pause rep now? Do you have a criteria in your mind of where pushing last reps, and becoming rest-pause intensifier reps, is drawn at? When do i say its truly failure, knowing that if i wait just a few seconds (outside of the tempo used for all the preceeding reps) i can squeeze another rep, or maybe 2.

I know generally rest pause reps are longer rests, but where do i draw the line? If i wait 5 seconds? If i wait 10 seconds? Or is an interruption in the tempo to complete a rep the defining border between regular reps and rest-pause?

I ask as i can see multiple different points i could say im at failure, given that i can often push another rep if i wait just a couple seconds.

So I would not consider that rest pause per se but clearly if you're grinding out another rep, rest has done something for you. If you're consistent with it I see no reason to change but this is one reason I like normalized rep tempos.

Rest pause for me is 15-20s unloaded rest and then repping again. Usually my go to intensity technique because it requires no extra work; just rack it for a bit, take a few deep breaths, go again.

 

[Megadick3000]

So I would not consider that rest pause per se but clearly if you're grinding out another rep, rest has done something for you. If you're consistent with it I see no reason to change but this is one reason I like normalized rep tempos.

Rest pause for me is 15-20s unloaded rest and then repping again. Usually my go to intensity technique because it requires no extra work; just rack it for a bit, take a few deep breaths, go again.

So the ELI5 of this. You are defining failure in your workouts as the point at which you cannot perform a full ROM repetition within the rep tempo you have used for all the preceding reps in that exercise.

So even if you could bang another rep if you broke the tempo even just for a couple seconds, you will stop before then and consider the set completed to failure (assuming no intention to perform intensifiers)?

 

[Mac11wildcat]

So the ELI5 of this. You are defining failure in your workouts as the point at which you cannot perform a full ROM repetition within the rep tempo you have used for all the preceding reps in that exercise.

So even if you could bang another rep if you broke the tempo even just for a couple seconds, you will stop before then and consider the set completed to failure (assuming no intention to perform intensifiers)?

Correct. Now I may grind out a partial or two depending on the safety built into the exercise (probably not smart on preacher curl but inherently super safe in a Tricep cable extension) but shifting focus to another muscle group or risking injury for another rep by altering my tempo isn't worth it for me. My reps aren't meticulously timed but they're controlled with the slightest pause in the end range to kill momentum.

 

[Deadp007]

...
"Intensity" isn't about load but about a proximity to failure.
...

Thank you for that  definition. It is easier to wrap my head around than any of the other definitions for "intensity" that I've found. Most importantly it's ACTIONABLE and not just word salad.

 

[Tenman2b]

Calves are generally tacked on extra. I use a PPL. A bro split might be more movements/sets per day. 6 movements covers pecs/Delts/tris, back/bis, quads/hams on their respective days.

Can you describe your Pec/Delt/Tri day? It sounds like you would be doing 2 failure sets per movement, 2 movements for chest. That doesnt seem like enough for hypertrophy, but youre bigger than me, so obviously youre doing something right. Gimme the details please sir! I wanna grow.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Can you describe your Pec/Delt/Tri day? It sounds like you would be doing 2 failure sets per movement, 2 movements for chest. That doesnt seem like enough for hypertrophy, but youre bigger than me, so obviously youre doing something right. Gimme the details please sir! I wanna grow.

2 push days a week. Here they are.

Push 1
1. HS Incline Press
2. Seated Cable Press
3. DB Lateral
4. Single Cable Rear Delt Flye
5. OTS Tri Cable Ext
6. JM Press
7. Pec Dec SS Tri Ext (pump/metabolic 3x12 each superset short rest)

Push 2
1. Low Incline Smith Press
2. Flat HS Press
3. Double Cuff Cable Lateral
4. Single Cable Tri Ext
5. Dips
6. OH Strap Tri Extension (pump/methanol if 5x12 short rest)

I think most people drastically overestimate what it takes for muscle to grow, especially single muscle groups like pecs as opposed to back where pecs perform one major function where backs various groups can perform several.

 

[Juggy3838]

Not @Mac11wildcat, but i was a follower of Jordan Peters paid website for a long time. So an example of a chest focused push...(im in an oldschool PL gym so i dont have machines worth a shit....

Barbell bench....Work up to a brutally hard top set in the 6-8 rep range. Drop load 10-15% and try to hit in a 8-12 range. Obviously you dont want to fail on bench and get pinned. 2 sets...

Slight Incline dB press....work up to a topset of 8-10 reps to failure. Drop load next set and take them for a spin for 10-12 reps to failure. 2 sets.

DB OHP......top set 8-10, backoff of 10-12 reps. 2 sets.

Some sort of shoulder lateral raise.....topset of 12-15 reps. Next set, same weight, but i go to failure, 15 breaths, and go to failure one more time, so like 2/3 of the oldschool DC rest-pause.

Weighted dips......topset 8-10 reps. Backoff 10-12 reps. 2 sets

Rope OH extensions.....Hard 10-12 reps. next set 12-15 reps to failure. 2 sets.

Done. If you look at it, you have basically 6 sets for chest, as your first tricep movement is hitting chest hard, and for triceps, you are doing 6 pressing sets that call on the tris BEFORE you even get to triceps specific work. Plenty of volume if your trying to meet god on each set.

 

[MountainBaby]

It's really for two reasons.

One is as you state above. I can't imagine I'll want to press 5 plates consistently, but eventually I'll get there strength wise. At that point I May stop upping weight and add "volume" via rest pause or drops.

But also as a means to just simply add "volume" without adding sets when I can tolerate more volume/recovery is thru the roof on high food, gear, etc.

"Intensity" isn't about load but about a proximity to failure. I think most, like 95% of people in the gym, can benefit most by ingraining what mechanical failure is, get good at achieving it, and working there for a while before anything beyond failure/intensity techniques/more volume are needed.

You've shared a lot of GREAT information in this thread and have the results to back it up. I agree with almost everything you've said... but want to respectfully challenge a couple points.

1: Approaches to failure are absolutely where the money is at. So why don't you progressively add more approaches as you progress through a mesocycle?

2: Why so many warm-up sets? To my eye, they look like a bit of junk volume - and energy that could be spent on more approaches to failure

For example, on a cold muscle group, I do one warm-up set at 50% working weight for 10 reps, then one set at ~75% working weight for 5 reps, then one set at or ~10% above working weight for 2-3 reps. Then my working sets range from 1-6 depending on where I'm at in my meso.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

You've shared a lot of GREAT information in this thread and have the results to back it up. I agree with almost everything you've said... but want to respectfully challenge a couple points.

1: Approaches to failure are absolutely where the money is at. So why don't you progressively add more approaches as you progress through a mesocycle?

2: Why so many warm-up sets? To my eye, they look like a bit of junk volume - and energy that could be spent on more approaches to failure

For example, on a cold muscle group, I do one warm-up set at 50% working weight for 10 reps, then one set at ~75% working weight for 5 reps, then one set at or ~10% above working weight for 2-3 reps. Then my working sets range from 1-6 depending on where I'm at in my meso.

What you've described for warmups is what I do...3-4 warmups on the first movement of descending reps for ascending weight and fewer on the other movements. But I warmup as needed and it isn't the same every day. I've reached a point load wise that requires a bit more care. If I don't feel right after a couple warm ups I'll do another. I'm not rigid with warmups because if I need to do an extra warmup and end up doing 1 less rep than theoretically possible due to an extra warmup but still added a rep over last week, I progressed. If I stay rigid on warmups and blow a Pec pressing 6 plates on the hammer strength my year is over.

As far as number of working sets, adding more volume via a whole extra set is a last approach IMO, added intensity is where i default to, IE past failure first: drops, rest pause, forces reps, etc. The reps we care about are the ones closest to failure, why do another set of 10 when I can rest 20s in a rest pause and do just the 3-4 that get me to failure?

 

[laclark89]

I agree I feel like I get i get better results going heavy 3-7 reps close to failure, but can get similar results going high volume with my last set to failure or past and it's easier on my joints a d nervous system. I've asked people before every one has a preference but if u really wana get big an quality quality muslce you have to do everything at some point.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Proximity to failure is what seems to really matter per recent science. Whether it's failing at 6 reps or 15 reps, roughly the same. 6 or below can take a toll on joints and is a higher injury risk and 15+ you're testing your cardio and the higher the reps the more likely IMO you stop a rep short/underestimate where mechanical failure truly is. 6-12 with occasional excursions higher, especially on legs, seems to do the trick and keep people safe.