jago25_98
New Member
They're definately a weak spot for me.
How can I focus on the delt without bringing in triceps and traps too much?
How can I focus on the delt without bringing in triceps and traps too much?
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Stubborn delts
- Thread starter jago25_98
- Start date
How much can you bench press and military press? How much do you weigh and how tall are you? Be honest! Trust me, noone is going to laugh if you only bench 225 (or 185 for that matter).
The reason I ask, is that often people look toward isolation exercises when they aren't very strong in the compound movements. The fact is, unless you are using your triceps, you aren't going to be training your shoulders with much weight at all. If you think doing DB raises with 30lb is what will give you big shoulders, then that's fine...but the guys with the really big shoulders will be benching 350+ and overhead pressing 225+. Until you get really strong in these movements, I wouldn't really consider isolation exercises just for the delts, as you simply will not gain mass like you will with the compound movements. Ronnie Coleman would give you the same advice.
The reason I ask, is that often people look toward isolation exercises when they aren't very strong in the compound movements. The fact is, unless you are using your triceps, you aren't going to be training your shoulders with much weight at all. If you think doing DB raises with 30lb is what will give you big shoulders, then that's fine...but the guys with the really big shoulders will be benching 350+ and overhead pressing 225+. Until you get really strong in these movements, I wouldn't really consider isolation exercises just for the delts, as you simply will not gain mass like you will with the compound movements. Ronnie Coleman would give you the same advice.
jago25_98
New Member
Prognosis correct: 190 bench and military I don't even know but probably pretty awful. Military press is my weakest exercise. Weight is about 156 pounds.
In an effort to bring my shoulders forward (they're small and in the wrong place!) I've been working my back hard and slackened off on the chest. My chest is fine and I find it easy to train but the shoulders have changed very little. Big chest with little arms on the side. Looks a bit odd.
I'll start on the military press asap. Because I don't like doing them I guess I forgot about them!
I don't really want to start work on the chest heavy again because I'm worried that would exaggerate both symetry of sizes and bring the shoulders forward again, the last thing I want as training the back is harder than the chest.
In an effort to bring my shoulders forward (they're small and in the wrong place!) I've been working my back hard and slackened off on the chest. My chest is fine and I find it easy to train but the shoulders have changed very little. Big chest with little arms on the side. Looks a bit odd.
I'll start on the military press asap. Because I don't like doing them I guess I forgot about them!
I don't really want to start work on the chest heavy again because I'm worried that would exaggerate both symetry of sizes and bring the shoulders forward again, the last thing I want as training the back is harder than the chest.
shoulders
Good advice,
Simple as this, you want delt growth? Standing overhead press with olympic bar!! repeated submaximal sets, progress whenever possible. Ignore single joint movements like side raises, upright rows are generally pretty useless.
There is some debate as to the efficacy of direct delt work, some training 'gurus' (notablly Poliquin!) hardly advocate any delt work based on the notion that the deltoids contribute to so many upperbody exercises.
Think of it like this: any compund exercise that incorporates the triceps and chest will involve the delts, get stronger at those and your delts will grow.
Get
Good advice,
Simple as this, you want delt growth? Standing overhead press with olympic bar!! repeated submaximal sets, progress whenever possible. Ignore single joint movements like side raises, upright rows are generally pretty useless.
There is some debate as to the efficacy of direct delt work, some training 'gurus' (notablly Poliquin!) hardly advocate any delt work based on the notion that the deltoids contribute to so many upperbody exercises.
Think of it like this: any compund exercise that incorporates the triceps and chest will involve the delts, get stronger at those and your delts will grow.
Get
bg65
New Member
A 190lb benchpress at your weight isn't that bad. My delts were seriously lagging not long ago, so I just moved my delt work into the front of my workout so that I could give maximum NRG and intensity to the delts
I like to finish with wide grip upright rows- I get an insane pump in my delts with those
I like to finish with wide grip upright rows- I get an insane pump in my delts with those
Pump means nothing to hypertrophy or strength progression. Neither does soreness/DOMS while we are on the subject.
Learn to love overhead work. Push presses and standing military.
As J DUB said, you should take the time to describe your workout program because I am sure he and I have the same suspicion that there may be more out of place than just your emphasis on overhead work.
Learn to love overhead work. Push presses and standing military.
As J DUB said, you should take the time to describe your workout program because I am sure he and I have the same suspicion that there may be more out of place than just your emphasis on overhead work.
CyniQ
New Member
bg65 said:
I get better results faster on my delts than probably any other body part. I used to love upright rows... Until I discovered High Pulls.
jago25_98
New Member
I see, the unexpected answer; don't focus on delts!
Maybe catch 101 regards chest. I'm worried if I train my chest my shoulders will come forward even if I pay special attention to stretching there properly.
Originally my workout was along the lines of:
Bench, SmithSquat, PecDeck, PullDowns, Crunches, HyperExtentions, Standing Dumbbell Rear Raises, Dumbbell Side Raises, Tricep Work. No rotation at all and always forgot to do forearms(not good). Other stuff tried out as well but not regular.
After a while I noticed that while I was happy from things looking from the front I noticed that I look awful from the side.
Now my workout is more varied. All the same but no bench or pec deck and taken some exercises from the Tnation `heal that hunchback` article in an effort to bring my shoulders forward.
Now training rotator cuffs and focusing on back (next to no back exercises before!), Standing Dumbbell Serratus Crunch, Bent Over Barbell Rows, T-Bar Rows, Dumbbell Rows, Shrugs, Standing Dumbbell Rear Raises, (can't do cable pulls anymore - didn't have barbells before, now no machine!! at least it's v.cheap...), leg extentions and curls....
Will add and focus on:
- Wide Grip Barbell Upright Rows
- various Barbell Presses 1st, then finish off universal machine presses, then maybe overhead dumbell presses
- won't focus on delts but if do decide to work chest heavy again will try to stretch chest as best I can
At the moment my cardio work is up too because I'm finding that I get out of breath sometimes before my muscles ache.
I must admit that up until recently I'd favoured a laid back approach in terms of what exercises I do, trying to remember them all. Before I was just getting to the gym and working each basic part (i.e. chest, legs etc) all over until I felt knackered. I can see now that I'm going to have to start writing things down and get a bit more strict, possibly rotating between back, legs/bits & front.
I don't like following programmes but I think I'm going to have to come up with a rough plan for each area and rotate day to day.
Maybe catch 101 regards chest. I'm worried if I train my chest my shoulders will come forward even if I pay special attention to stretching there properly.
Originally my workout was along the lines of:
Bench, SmithSquat, PecDeck, PullDowns, Crunches, HyperExtentions, Standing Dumbbell Rear Raises, Dumbbell Side Raises, Tricep Work. No rotation at all and always forgot to do forearms(not good). Other stuff tried out as well but not regular.
After a while I noticed that while I was happy from things looking from the front I noticed that I look awful from the side.
Now my workout is more varied. All the same but no bench or pec deck and taken some exercises from the Tnation `heal that hunchback` article in an effort to bring my shoulders forward.
Now training rotator cuffs and focusing on back (next to no back exercises before!), Standing Dumbbell Serratus Crunch, Bent Over Barbell Rows, T-Bar Rows, Dumbbell Rows, Shrugs, Standing Dumbbell Rear Raises, (can't do cable pulls anymore - didn't have barbells before, now no machine!! at least it's v.cheap...), leg extentions and curls....
Will add and focus on:
- Wide Grip Barbell Upright Rows
- various Barbell Presses 1st, then finish off universal machine presses, then maybe overhead dumbell presses
- won't focus on delts but if do decide to work chest heavy again will try to stretch chest as best I can
At the moment my cardio work is up too because I'm finding that I get out of breath sometimes before my muscles ache.
I must admit that up until recently I'd favoured a laid back approach in terms of what exercises I do, trying to remember them all. Before I was just getting to the gym and working each basic part (i.e. chest, legs etc) all over until I felt knackered. I can see now that I'm going to have to start writing things down and get a bit more strict, possibly rotating between back, legs/bits & front.
I don't like following programmes but I think I'm going to have to come up with a rough plan for each area and rotate day to day.
general advice
First thing, I know its a ball ache, but log your workouts. That way you can see if your progressing or are stagnant.
Secondly, its a sensible idea to have a definite training structure, periodised. This can be as simple or as complex and scientific as you wish to make it.
Thirdly and possibly most importantly in my opinion, you need to establish what your goals are! ask your self why do you train? what is it you wish to achieve, is it cosmetics, sports performance, strength etc. The answer to your training problems tend to lie in your goals.
There are reasons why people invest so much of their time establishing training programs and concepts, because they work.
Remember this, your body is an adaptive organism, it adapts to any stimulus you place on it, or take away from it. Your body adapts to a stimulus so that it can reach a point where it no longer has to exert itself, or stay in a rut so to speak. So, if a body part isnt adapting it means there is something wrong with your training and you've reached that rut. The trick with training, nutrition and steroid usage is to manipulate this adaptive response so that your body is in a continual state of adaptation. The only true way to see if this occuring is to have a training diary, the numbers dont lie.
BTW Pec decks are shit
First thing, I know its a ball ache, but log your workouts. That way you can see if your progressing or are stagnant.
Secondly, its a sensible idea to have a definite training structure, periodised. This can be as simple or as complex and scientific as you wish to make it.
Thirdly and possibly most importantly in my opinion, you need to establish what your goals are! ask your self why do you train? what is it you wish to achieve, is it cosmetics, sports performance, strength etc. The answer to your training problems tend to lie in your goals.
There are reasons why people invest so much of their time establishing training programs and concepts, because they work.
Remember this, your body is an adaptive organism, it adapts to any stimulus you place on it, or take away from it. Your body adapts to a stimulus so that it can reach a point where it no longer has to exert itself, or stay in a rut so to speak. So, if a body part isnt adapting it means there is something wrong with your training and you've reached that rut. The trick with training, nutrition and steroid usage is to manipulate this adaptive response so that your body is in a continual state of adaptation. The only true way to see if this occuring is to have a training diary, the numbers dont lie.
BTW Pec decks are shit
jago25_98
New Member
-Thanks for all the advice people-
Righto, I'm working on it.
Gonna start assembling pics from TheTrainingStationInc.com and divide into 3 days: back/front/legs+shoulders with arms spread through the week, print that out and go from there.
I'm not going to be too scientific because I workout for fun, for the after-feeling primarily which isn't a goal picked up on charts. My second goal is to get my posture right and third is for looks, and that's a little unusual.
As for the pec-deck, I hate most of them like this:
Invalid Embedded Image Removed
but ones like this feel good to me:
To me a good pecdeck feels like it's filling in the gaps from the bench. It's one of my favorite because it's a no-brainer movement. If you press on the side of your monitor and feel the muscle being recruited and compare that to pushing the monitor away wouldn't you agree?
Oh, the monitor's on the floor? Sorry
edit:: Don't know why I just posted all that seeing as I posted a want to improve at the start. Guess I'm just obnoxious, reacting to disgree with everything!
Righto, I'm working on it.
Gonna start assembling pics from TheTrainingStationInc.com and divide into 3 days: back/front/legs+shoulders with arms spread through the week, print that out and go from there.
I'm not going to be too scientific because I workout for fun, for the after-feeling primarily which isn't a goal picked up on charts. My second goal is to get my posture right and third is for looks, and that's a little unusual.
As for the pec-deck, I hate most of them like this:
Invalid Embedded Image Removed
but ones like this feel good to me:
To me a good pecdeck feels like it's filling in the gaps from the bench. It's one of my favorite because it's a no-brainer movement. If you press on the side of your monitor and feel the muscle being recruited and compare that to pushing the monitor away wouldn't you agree?
Oh, the monitor's on the floor? Sorry
edit:: Don't know why I just posted all that seeing as I posted a want to improve at the start. Guess I'm just obnoxious, reacting to disgree with everything!
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CyniQ
New Member
If you're that desparate to squeeze... do DB flys for Christs sake. Look at that queer in the bottom pic. Do you want to look like him?
If madcow or kenneth respond to this thread... I would definitely listen to what they have to say. Until then, I say forget the split. Do full body workouts 3 days per week. Forget your cardio. Try something like this:
Squat
Flat Bench
Deadlift
Wide Grip Pullup
Bent Row
Push Press
3 days a week. Rest the other four. You won't need the cardio. Try to add 10lbs per week (don't know what that is in stones, mate. sorry) to your Squat, DL, and PP. Add 5 per week to your FB and BR. and 1 rep to your pullups. I would do that for 8 weeks then move to a 5x5.
edit- 3 sets of 10 for 8 weeks. I'm assuming you've been lifting for less than a year. But I guess I'm basing that assumption on your affinity for pec decks.
I must, I must, I must increase my bust...
Just my .02
If madcow or kenneth respond to this thread... I would definitely listen to what they have to say. Until then, I say forget the split. Do full body workouts 3 days per week. Forget your cardio. Try something like this:
Squat
Flat Bench
Deadlift
Wide Grip Pullup
Bent Row
Push Press
3 days a week. Rest the other four. You won't need the cardio. Try to add 10lbs per week (don't know what that is in stones, mate.
sorry) to your Squat, DL, and PP. Add 5 per week to your FB and BR. and 1 rep to your pullups. I would do that for 8 weeks then move to a 5x5.edit- 3 sets of 10 for 8 weeks. I'm assuming you've been lifting for less than a year. But I guess I'm basing that assumption on your affinity for pec decks.
I must, I must, I must increase my bust...
Just my .02
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bg65
New Member
CyniQ said:
LMAO
For a simple, easy to use program why not try the 5x5? After 2 or 3 6 week cycles of this you should be very close to or at 230 on bench.
Please forget the pec-decs, smith squats and all that crap. A pec dec or db fly will not do jack for you. Is there a reason you use a smith machine for a squat?
I will also bet that as you squat more, you will bench more and OH press more. What does this mean? Bigger shoulders. I am not sure if this phenomenon has been adequately examined in the scientific literature, but there is plenty of evidence showing for example that if you exercise only your left leg, your right leg will get stronger as well. I suspect similar mechanisms are at work.
Please forget the pec-decs, smith squats and all that crap. A pec dec or db fly will not do jack for you. Is there a reason you use a smith machine for a squat?
I will also bet that as you squat more, you will bench more and OH press more. What does this mean? Bigger shoulders. I am not sure if this phenomenon has been adequately examined in the scientific literature, but there is plenty of evidence showing for example that if you exercise only your left leg, your right leg will get stronger as well. I suspect similar mechanisms are at work.
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jago25_98
New Member
I don't use a smith anymore. I did before because there was nothing else.
Back to basics.
k. A bit redundant now but got _some_ figures if interested:
bench: 100kg (220)
pulldowns: 65kg strict, ~89kg loose
upright rows: 40kg (88)
tbar rows: 70kg+
seated universal press: 40kg (88)
squat: didn't have a spotter that day
bent rows: 50kg+
(pounds in brackets)
Body Weight: 76/12stone (168 pounds)
I'd been working on my posture and cardio lately for surfing and looks. I think getting my shoulders back is as important as building muscle - if I look in the mirror with shoulders back and relaxed the difference is obvious. If you've got this problem you'll know what I mean. There isn't any successful bodybuilders out there with forward shoulders.
Now I know that this is a problem to be solved with mass training & compounds I wonder if I should work on one thing at a time - posture, cardio or mass.
Back to basics.
k. A bit redundant now but got _some_ figures if interested:
bench: 100kg (220)
pulldowns: 65kg strict, ~89kg loose
upright rows: 40kg (88)
tbar rows: 70kg+
seated universal press: 40kg (88)
squat: didn't have a spotter that day
bent rows: 50kg+
(pounds in brackets)
Body Weight: 76/12stone (168 pounds)
I'd been working on my posture and cardio lately for surfing and looks. I think getting my shoulders back is as important as building muscle - if I look in the mirror with shoulders back and relaxed the difference is obvious. If you've got this problem you'll know what I mean. There isn't any successful bodybuilders out there with forward shoulders.
Now I know that this is a problem to be solved with mass training & compounds I wonder if I should work on one thing at a time - posture, cardio or mass.
johnsmith182
New Member
heres the problem
you have a "hunchback" look becasue you arent working your back as hard as your front.
you are using 50k for rows, and 100k for bench presses. if you bench 100k, your rows should be round 80 to 100k. the back aint a hard muscle group to stimulate, but its big, so it takes lots of hard work and effort, just like legs.
get your damn row up to the bench press numbers, and then actually train your row with similar numbers to what you train your bench with for a while, and with similar volume and effort, and youll see your problem going away.
forget teh silly shit your doing, nobody who can row big weights and clean big weights looks like a hunchback.
you have a "hunchback" look becasue you arent working your back as hard as your front.
you are using 50k for rows, and 100k for bench presses. if you bench 100k, your rows should be round 80 to 100k. the back aint a hard muscle group to stimulate, but its big, so it takes lots of hard work and effort, just like legs.
get your damn row up to the bench press numbers, and then actually train your row with similar numbers to what you train your bench with for a while, and with similar volume and effort, and youll see your problem going away.
forget teh silly shit your doing, nobody who can row big weights and clean big weights looks like a hunchback.
