Successful offseason with no test/low test and high anabolics possible?

[ComancheChief]

Has anyone here done anything like that before for a competition? Any competitors openly talk about successful offseason with just 150-200 test and higher anabolics?

Like 150 test 850 eq/primo vs 1g test

If total mg of AAS are equal, would results in muscle tissue gain be similar?

 

[xrayphoton13]

Yes. Dr. Todd Lee for one. Trt test plus high masteron. Para_33 is a member on this board that runs no test and is huge. He runs non aromatizing androgens and injects his estrogen. Look at his Instagram or YouTube. Taeian Clark has a whole cult on Facebook of people running no test so they don't lose hair. And there are some pretty huge guys there too. If you go there you'll see most people running these cycles: Dbol or halo only. Deca only. Or dbol/deca, EQ/deca, etc. There's so many combinations. You just need something that aromatizes to get enough e2.

I like the idea of it to avoid hairloss and high e2 but I just don't feel as good with most of these combinations. I've found I'd rather run high test and use exemestane and dutasteride/minoxidil to manage sides effects

There was just a thread here that I think was about trt test plus high anabolics. Let me see if I can find it

EDIT: For those of you who play the 200mg test game and then add tons of anabolics on top, which do you use? I can't tolerate masteron at any dose.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Why’re we always looking for the out of the box way?

A tiny test dose with a large dose of EQ, mast, or primo will almost 100% leave you feeling like shit from low e2. It should be an absolute last resort and you’ll likely need a source of estrogen and last I checked deca doesn’t provide meaningful aromatization based on using the correct e2 bloodwork panel . The success stories are the exception here. Attempting to be the exception for anything but a very small number of reasons is usually a losing battle.

Here’s a bitch of a question though; if you can’t tolerate the most bioidentical and simple compound is competitive bodybuilding really for you? The proliferation of fitness and bodybuilding has WAY too many people chasing this that shouldn’t be after confronted with any number of genetic or health issues.

My .02 as a pro who’s been doing this for almost 15 years.

PS: a large dose of any single compound (and TRT isn’t really a “dose” of test when we’re talking exogenous use for BB) is always less effective and more side effect prone than a balanced “cocktail.”

 

[ComancheChief]

Why’re we always looking for the out of the box way?

A tiny test dose with a large dose of EQ, mast, or primo will almost 100% leave you feeling like shit from low e2. It should be an absolute last resort and you’ll likely need a source of estrogen and last I checked deca doesn’t provide meaningful aromatization based on using the correct e2 bloodwork panel . The success stories are the exception here. Attempting to be the exception for anything but a very small number of reasons is usually a losing battle.

Here’s a bitch of a question though; if you can’t tolerate the most bioidentical and simple compound is competitive bodybuilding really for you? The proliferation of fitness and bodybuilding has WAY too many people chasing this that shouldn’t be after confronted with any number of genetic or health issues.

My .02 as a pro who’s been doing this for almost 15 years.

PS: a large dose of any single compound (and TRT isn’t really a “dose” of test when we’re talking exogenous use for BB) is always less effective and more side effect prone than a balanced “cocktail.”

So for someone who wants to avoid lethargy , water retention and BP would you recommend taking a decent dose of test and using AIs to combat those effects? Some people try to avoid ai as they can cause side effects independent of estrogen levels.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

So for someone who wants to avoid lethargy , water retention and BP would you recommend taking a decent dose of test and using AIs to combat those effects? Some people try to avoid ai as they can cause side effects independent of estrogen levels.

Are you just assuming you’ll experience these or have you already? I don’t know who’s instilling test fear into the next gen but…provide some context to your challenge of conventional protocol knowledge; would be very helpful.

 

[kasperl]

150 test + 800 eq or primo.. sounds fun

i tried 600 test + 900 eq once for an experiment..

..i crashed my E2 to the ground which caused joint pain, insomnia, a general feeling of sickness.
and even my blood pressure moved from around 125/75 to 140/80s something

Is it possible to design a cycle without test? Probably..

..but it is way more complicated

 

[Jaxino]

As I have stated numerous times, a high dose of testosterone, a slight amount of Equipoise, elevated HGH, and insulin administered pre- and post-workout yielded the most remarkable gains of my life—delivering exceptional quality of life while maintaining blood markers that were virtually indistinguishable from natural levels.

What more could one possibly desire?

Not to mention that both testosterone and Equipoise are incredibly cost-effective.

I deeply regret having wasted so many years running cycles with low testosterone and high doses of anabolic compounds.

 

[Country Club Hero]

Are you just assuming you’ll experience these or have you already? I don’t know who’s instilling test fear into the next gen but…provide some context to your challenge of conventional protocol knowledge; would be very helpful.

I don’t think it’s the Testosterone people are typically leery of. It’s the use of AI’s and SERMs. AI’s are nasty ass drugs. Especially for men. The bone density loss is real and significant.

Twice in my life I have used a little too much A-dex. Just so happens those two times were the only times I’ve broken bones. And they were small bones in my feet. Plus we know they affect bone density with long term use. Then you have the BP drugs and their potential sides. Etc…

Testosterone itself is just fine. It’s a little boring for my taste but totally fine overall. It’s the ancillary drug use needed from combatting the sides of higher testosterone that I think many people are starting to look at with a weird side eye look. And rightfully so imo.

Personally, high testosterone just makes me blocky and thick. It’s a very predictable hormone in myself. I prefer more exotic stuff when blasting. And just enough test to keep everything functioning properly.

But one thing to consider is goals. I agree with your sentiment if someone is competing. But most of us probably just wanna be swole and lean, I think. So for the non competitor guys, I say experiment away.

But one thing you are definitely correct about no matter the case is that many of those proposed cycles with low test will end up with the user being totally miserable from crashed E2. I have been there myself with a retarded 600 primo/300 Test blast. I was totally miserable until I got my E2 out of the gutter.

 

[Jaxino]

So for someone who wants to avoid lethargy , water retention and BP would you recommend taking a decent dose of test and using AIs to combat those effects? Some people try to avoid ai as they can cause side effects independent of estrogen levels.

Mate, all the issues you mentioned only apply to an overweight "bodybuilder." I'm currently running 10 IU of HGH, 2g of Test, 875mg of EQ, 6mg of Retatrutide, 80mcg of Clen, 40mg of Telmisartan, 2.5mg of Nebivolol, and 30 minutes of cardio six times a week.


I just finished an 8-week cut, and I have fully visible abs, striations on my legs, and clear muscle separation in my arms—standing at 6' (182cm) and 231 lbs (105kg).


Maybe you should focus more on diet and training rather than just gear. I used to have the exact same mindset as you until I started prioritizing the right foods.


I used to think that pro bodybuilders don’t talk about gear because everyone has their own "secret formula," but that’s not the case at all. The truth is—there are no secrets.

 

[knucklesamich]

Yes. Dr. Todd Lee for one. Trt test plus high masteron. Para_33 is a member on this board that runs no test and is huge. He runs non aromatizing androgens and injects his estrogen. Look at his Instagram or YouTube. Taeian Clark has a whole cult on Facebook of people running no test so they don't lose hair. And there are some pretty huge guys there too. If you go there you'll see most people running these cycles: Dbol or halo only. Deca only. Or dbol/deca, EQ/deca, etc. There's so many combinations. You just need something that aromatizes to get enough e2.

I like the idea of it to avoid hairloss and high e2 but I just don't feel as good with most of these combinations. I've found I'd rather run high test and use exemestane and dutasteride/minoxidil to manage sides effects

There was just a thread here that I think was about trt test plus high anabolics. Let me see if I can find it

EDIT: For those of you who play the 200mg test game and then add tons of anabolics on top, which do you use? I can't tolerate masteron at any dose.

I saw a forum poster elsewhere that said he tried using EQ for TRT instead of Test and said he loved it. Go figure. I don't know HOW EQ works to keep estrogen down, some very intelligent people out there say it's very misunderstood, and we don't know exactly how it works, but some theory says it turns off estrogen receptors at a genetic level. Way over my head, but interesting.

 

[malfeasance]

I'm currently running 10 IU of HGH, 2g of Test, 875mg of EQ, 6mg of Retatrutide, 80mcg of Clen, 40mg of Telmisartan, 2.5mg of Nebivolol, and 30 minutes of cardio six times a week.

LOL, damn. No playing around there. I never reached those kind of doses. I sometimes wish I had discovered gear when I was younger.

 

[malfeasance]

i tried 600 test + 900 eq once for an experiment..

..i crashed my E2 to the ground which caused joint pain, insomnia, a general feeling of sickness.
and even my blood pressure moved from around 125/75 to 140/80s something

Is it possible to design a cycle without test? Probably..

..but it is way more complicated

I ran that exact cycle once for 15-20 weeks (I do not remember exactly how long). I felt great and looked great.

The one problem I did experience I did not really know about until after the cycle. My hematocrit jumped up to record high levels and I was turned away from the blood donation center and had to figure out how to order a blood donation kit and drain it myself.

LOL

But I grew and looked good and felt good.

 

[Grey Spartan]

Maybe you should focus more on diet and training rather than just gear. I used to have the exact same mindset as you until I started prioritizing the right foods.

100% Preach it brother.

I think we all learn this lesson the hard way.

 

[xrayphoton13]

I don’t think it’s the Testosterone people are typically leery of. It’s the use of AI’s and SERMs. AI’s are nasty ass drugs. Especially for men. The bone density loss is real and significant.

Twice in my life I have used a little too much A-dex. Just so happens those two times were the only times I’ve broken bones. And they were small bones in my feet. Plus we know they affect bone density with long term use. Then you have the BP drugs and their potential sides. Etc…

Testosterone itself is just fine. It’s a little boring for my taste but totally fine overall. It’s the ancillary drug use needed from combatting the sides of higher testosterone that I think many people are starting to look at with a weird side eye look. And rightfully so imo.

Personally, high testosterone just makes me blocky and thick. It’s a very predictable hormone in myself. I prefer more exotic stuff when blasting. And just enough test to keep everything functioning properly.

But one thing to consider is goals. I agree with your sentiment if someone is competing. But most of us probably just wanna be swole and lean, I think. So for the non competitor guys, I say experiment away.

But one thing you are definitely correct about no matter the case is that many of those proposed cycles with low test will end up with the user being totally miserable from crashed E2. I have been there myself with a retarded 600 primo/300 Test blast. I was totally miserable until I got my E2 out of the gutter.

Just switch to aromasin. You won't have to worry about bone density. If you listen to Type-IIx's podcast, on episode 8 he discussed aromasin and arimidex and stated that aromasin is "potently bone anabolic" so you don't have to deal with bone fractures like with arimidex. It also doesn't significantly lower igf-1

 

[xrayphoton13]

I saw a forum poster elsewhere that said he tried using EQ for TRT instead of Test and said he loved it. Go figure. I don't know HOW EQ works to keep estrogen down, some very intelligent people out there say it's very misunderstood, and we don't know exactly how it works, but some theory says it turns off estrogen receptors at a genetic level. Way over my head, but interesting.

This article should help put the theories you heard to bed:

Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help!

Understand the complex interaction of Primobolan and Equipoise with estrogen levels, symptoms of low estrogens, and practical decision-making strategies for managing these effects in AAS users.

thinksteroids.com

 

[Astartes]

and had to figure out how to order a blood donation kit and drain it myself.

Having done self field triage and stitched myself a couple times… That sounds like an adventure. Lmao

 

[knucklesamich]

This article should help put the theories you heard to bed:

Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help!

Understand the complex interaction of Primobolan and Equipoise with estrogen levels, symptoms of low estrogens, and practical decision-making strategies for managing these effects in AAS users.

thinksteroids.com

It's a good read. Interesting too. Thank you.

 

[rxzed]

Plus we know they affect bone density with long term use.

Is there any evidence to support this? Nearly all studies I've found for AIs are in breast cancer patients where they are crushing their estrogen, potentially for years. Even in hypogonadal men treated with AIs to increase test, the evidence is mixed. This almost certainly is unapplicable to men with controlled estrogen.

 

[xrayphoton13]

Is there any evidence to support this? Nearly all studies I've found for AIs are in breast cancer patients where they are crushing their estrogen, potentially for years. Even in hypogonadal men treated with AIs to increase test, the evidence is mixed. This almost certainly is unapplicable to men with controlled estrogen.

I'm sure @Type-IIx could answer this better but here is his podcast where he compares the two and states aromasin is bone anabolic unlike arimidex


View: https://youtu.be/l1GTajhAxRU?si=h8frFkf2kBBOGtFF

 

[rxzed]

I'm sure @Type-IIx could answer this better but here is his podcast where he compares the two and states aromasin is bone anabolic unlike arimidex


View: https://youtu.be/l1GTajhAxRU?si=h8frFkf2kBBOGtFF

Yeah, I'd be interested about his opinion; I'm not super educated on the pharmacodynamics of it. It appears that it was hypothesized that due to its androgenicity, Aromasin would help to maintain BMD in breast cancer patients, more so than Arimidex; but there was no significant difference. Also, reminder, this is in people that intentionally crash their estrogen for years on end. Definitely an area with very little research.

Here's the RCT - DOI: 10.1016/S1470-2045(14)70035-X