Suggestions on t-cyp frequency...

[BobbyCFromEP]

I've been on 180 mg t-cyp injections for better part of a year now. Labs have been pretty good and I'll have some new numbers in a few weeks. The problem is I seem to have a slow climb from Sunday (the injection day) to my peak on Friday. I get two good days (Thursday is pretty good and Friday is better) but I "crash" on Monday (the day after the next injection) which is the worst day followed by Tuesday which is a tiny bit better. My wife and I have been monitoring my mood, energy, concentration levels and there is a very distinct pattern.

I'd like to find a way to even out the highs and lows some. I'm curious about a slighty more frequent injection pattern with a somewhat smaller dosage. Anyone have an idea how do handle the math on this? Any advice would be appreciated, especially from someone who has tried this with positive or negative results. Thanks in advance...

Bobby

 

[1cc]

Are you doing shots weekly or every 2 weeks?

This is a calculator that helps you calculate the required dosage and frequency, and shows blood levels of of the medication at different times.

http://www.roidcalc.com/

 

[buck]

It looks like you are feeling your best when your T levels are the lowest. Perhaps you are using to much. Or need to inject a lesser amount more aoften.

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

Thanks for the info.

1cc: Sorry. I'm doing injections weekly. When we started injections (before settling in at 180 mg/wk) we tried different dosages. 100 mg/wk got my t levels to around 350 ng/dl on the peak days. The calculator works pretty good except I'm not quite sure about the half-life. Is it possible that the half-life will differ some from individual to the next? With the quick drop off I feel I wonder if my half-life on t-cyp is shorter.

Buck: I understood from several docs that my peak levels after an injection was around 4 or 5 days. With an injection on Sunday that makes Thursday or Friday my peak so my description was consistent with that. I am definitely not taking too much. It's more then usual but this is the way my system works with all meds. I'm a fast metabolizer and all my docs (including my dentist) know to use close to double the "standard" dose to have the effect in my system.

Bobby

 

[earthdog]

I don't think that calculator is accurate. It shows you having the highest levels on the day of your shot, but research has shown that levels peak on the 2nd or 3rd day. It's a nice idea, but flawed.

Bobby: are you on hcg? That may be the solution to your problem. See "TRT: A recipe for success", stickied above.

 

[1cc]

I don't think that calculator is accurate. It shows you having the highest levels on the day of your shot, but research has shown that levels peak on the 2nd or 3rd day. It's a nice idea, but flawed.

Bobby: are you on hcg? That may be the solution to your problem. See "TRT: A recipe for success", stickied above.

It is showing the levels of the Testosterone Cypionate medication, not the levels of Serum Testosterone. Whether these are levels are supposed to correlate, I'm not sure.

 

[earthdog]

It is showing the levels of the Testosterone Cypionate medication, not the levels of Serum Testosterone. Whether these are levels are supposed to correlate, I'm not sure.

What's the difference between the two? Serum levels are the levels in the bloodstream, no? Or am I missing something?

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

The numbers that the roidcalc come up with don't line up with my blood tests and certainly not how I feel. I'm really hesitant to screw around with this too much.

Earthdog, I was on hCG but I didn't notice a difference. It was during a time when my psych doc was getting my depression under control so maybe there was some competition. I know I was pretty messed up mentally.

Now that we've found a good combination of psych drugs I'd like to give hCG another try but there are no local docs (or even statewide) that will touch the stuff. I was a patient of swale but I didn't follow protocol and we had to part ways. I was grasping at a lot of straws and fouled this up as he was a good doc for me. This was completely my fault but I'm having an awful time finding a replacement after 7 months. Any suggestions?

 

[earthdog]

Now that we've found a good combination of psych drugs I'd like to give hCG another try but there are no local docs (or even statewide) that will touch the stuff. I was a patient of swale but I didn't follow protocol and we had to part ways. I was grasping at a lot of straws and fouled this up as he was a good doc for me. This was completely my fault but I'm having an awful time finding a replacement after 7 months. Any suggestions?

I don't know, maybe try again with Swale? I mean, it sounds like you've seen "the errors of your ways", whatever they may have been. Other than that... I don't have any answers for you. Just one thing though, AACE guidelines state that your levels peak on the 3rd day, so maybe your theory about the reason behind what your experiencing is flawed. In other words, maybe its for another reason entirely. But I must say that I felt pretty crappy the day of and the day after my shot until I started on Swale's hcg protocol. That seemed to balance everything out.

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

I'll contact him and fall on my sword (metaphorically speaking). It may that my original premise is flawed but we have seen a pattern for the last six weeks where Monday was a very bad day. I am also certain that Thursday and Friday are my best days. It would make sense that the extra kick that hCG adds (hCG injections two days and the day before t-cyp injection- correct?) would carry over and would help those low days. Thanks!

 

[mranak]

Serum testosterone levels typically peak around 48-72 hours after the injection. Serum effective non-ester testosterone half-life of testosterone cypionate is around 5-8 days; yes, the half-life varies from person to person.

My first reaction to your message is that your testosterone might be too high after the injections, but after some more thought, I think it might be something else. You see, estradiol levels drop a few days after the correlating testosterone levels drop. Thus, it seems very possible to me that estradiol is your issue. After you do those injections, the spike in estradiol, combined with the still elevated estradiol from the previous shot, together bring your estradiol levels too high.

That's my theory, anyway.

 

[1cc]

What's the difference between the two? Serum levels are the levels in the bloodstream, no? Or am I missing something?

Earthdog,

I may be wrong, but I think the Roid Calculator calculates the amount of Testosterone Cypionate released into the blood on different days. I don't know if this is any indication of how much Testosterone is in the blood on that particular day. I am really uncertain about this, perhaps you can elaborate a little more if it is otherwise.

I believe that the largest amount of testosterone is released on the day of the injection, yet as you say the blood testosterone levels are highest a couple of days later.

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

Interesting observation. Does E2 react that quickly? If so that brings in a different dynamic but with the same regularity. I'm taking .25 Arimidex weekly on Saturday and then injecting t-cyp on Sunday. Maybe I need to change the Arimidex dosing to account for the anticpated boost in E2 (assuming E2 responds that quickly). Very interesting...

 

[mranak]

Take a look at the charts on page 2 of this document about treatment of hypogonadism. The charts measure levels after administration of testosterone enanthate, but for all practical purposes, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate are the same.

You will notice that estradiol rises quickly, along with the testosterone, but that after 7 days, the estradiol levels are still elevated whereas the testosterone has dropped significantly.

What you said about taking Arimidex on Saturday throws another variable into this complicated interaction, however.

1cc: The roid calculator measures the non-ester serum testosterone levels. I have never seen a test or chart that directly measures or shows serum esterized testosterone.

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

Take a look at the charts on page 2 of this document about treatment of hypogonadism. The charts measure levels after administration of testosterone enanthate, but for all practical purposes, testosterone enanthate and testosterone cypionate are the same.

You will notice that estradiol rises quickly, along with the testosterone, but that after 7 days, the estradiol levels are still elevated whereas the testosterone has dropped significantly.

What you said about taking Arimidex on Saturday throws another variable into this complicated interaction, however.

1cc: The roid calculator measures the non-ester serum testosterone levels. I have never seen a test or chart that directly measures or shows serum esterized testosterone.

This definitely gives me something to look at. What I need to see is what the curve looks like using Arimidex and its effect on E2. I know there are guys that use DIM to control E2 production. Is DIM's effect more immediate and shorter lasting then prescription drugs like Arimidex? This E2 bump explains several things and bears investigation.

 

[mranak]

If you feel the worst on Monday, then get a blood test done on Monday. Might want to get the 'estradiol, sensitive' _and_ the 'total estrogens' test done, along with free or bioavailable testosterone.

I believe that the aromatase inhibitors, like Arimidex, go to work very quickly. However, they only stop the formation of new estradiol molecules and they do nothing for the metabolism of the existing estradiol. DIM increases the metabolism of _all_ estrogens (including estradiol) but I don't know much else about its actions.

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

If you feel the worst on Monday, then get a blood test done on Monday. Might want to get the 'estradiol, sensitive' _and_ the 'total estrogens' test done, along with free or bioavailable testosterone.

I believe that the aromatase inhibitors, like Arimidex, go to work very quickly. However, they only stop the formation of new estradiol molecules and they do nothing for the metabolism of the existing estradiol. DIM increases the metabolism of _all_ estrogens (including estradiol) but I don't know much else about its actions.

Thanks! I have to get a followup set of blood tests done with my PCP so I'll ask to add these. It's all out of my pocket anyways...

 

[pmgamer18]

I feel the guys are on the mark here you are doing what I was doing raising T meds to get levels up. And all I was doing is making my E2 go up. I feel you can go good taking .25 arimidex the day of the shot and the next day. Along with Indolplex/DIM take at dinner. Take the Arimidex and take the Indolplex/DIM together. Keep track on how you feel before doing this and as you start to feel better keep trrack of it. As your E2 goes down you will feel better and you Total and Free T levels will jump up mine did. As this happens low you shot dose a litttle at a time and go by how you feel start to cut back on the arimidex. I now can tell when my E2 is to high or going to low.
When I first got my E2 in check my ED got 80% better and I could have an orgasm. After 10 yrs of not being able to have sex with my wife life is not dam good.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
Phil

 

[BobbyCFromEP]

Phil,

I agree and the suggestion of looking closer into how I'm managing (or not managing) my E2 makes sense. Are you taking Indoplex/DIM daily? I'm just making sure. The Indolplex/DIM I have is a 120 mg tablet. If that's the case then the regimen would be as follows:

Sunday: t-cyp injection, .25 Arimidex, Indolplex/DIM
Monday: .25 Arimidex, Indolplex/DIM
Tuesday: Indolplex/DIM
Wednesday: Indolplex/DIM
Thursday: Indolplex/DIM
Friday: Indolplex/DIM
Saturday: Indolplex/DIM

Does that sound about right? I'll be able to tell on the 4th because this things been like clockwork. Glad to hear you are doing well. Since I've gotten my depression treated properly I've started to see the light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train Thanks!

Bobby

 

[greatgro]

I'm taking .25 Arimidex weekly on Saturday and then injecting t-cyp on Sunday. Maybe I need to change the Arimidex dosing to account for the anticpated boost in E2 (assuming E2 responds that quickly). Very interesting...

WAIT A MINUTE! Are you checking E2 levels? Why are you taking Arimidex? Because you have to or you (or your doc) just think you should? Dude - you're taking Arimidex on Saturday and the next two days are your worst days? And your best days are the two days BEFORE Arimidex? Do you not see a pattern here???? It appears your estrogen may be TOO LOW!