SWALE: Is it true that you have a daily HCG protocol?

[Sonny]

I've seen it posted in 2 places (SBI and EF), but never here...so I don't think it's true.

It's basically something like:

50mg Test Cyp per week
200 iu of HCG every day

Are these people misinformed?

Sonny

 

[mxim]

why only 50mgs of cyp a week? what are your levels at this dosage(after a week)?

 

[SWALE]

Dosing would be patient specific.

I would not take more than 100IU per day.

You still would experience variations in serum hormone levels across the week.

The very best TRT regimine is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG.

 

[1cc]

Dosing would be patient specific.

I would not take more than 100IU per day.

You still would experience variations in serum hormone levels across the week.

The very best TRT regimine is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG.

Wouldn't 150iu of HCG be the minimum required to maintain Intratesticular Testosterone at normal baseline?

 

[smitty4]

Dosing would be patient specific.

I would not take more than 100IU per day.

You still would experience variations in serum hormone levels across the week.

The very best TRT regimine is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG.

I am currently taking 80mg of cypionate weekly and 300IU of HCG per day. My labs have indicated that my levels are right where one would want them to be. Why would one limit their HCG to no more than 100IU per day? Perhaps it's time to consider changing up my protocol.

 

[SWALE]

Please refer to th efirst line of that reply.

I have to be careful of what I write, or guys will jump all over it, then things get twisted as they make it around the Message Board community. If I said I have a guy on 300IU of HCG per day, then it would turn into ALL my guys are on 1000IU every day, with 200mg of test cyp per week. LOL.

 

[smitty4]

Please refer to th efirst line of that reply.

I have to be careful of what I write, or guys will jump all over it, then things get twisted as they make it around the Message Board community. If I said I have a guy on 300IU of HCG per day, then it would turn into ALL my guys are on 1000IU every day, with 200mg of test cyp per week. LOL.

LOL...yep, funny how things get distorted like that.

In the past, I have received a few PM's regarding the protocol I am on and I ALWAYS preface my response with a comment regarding the fact that everyone responds differently.

 

[stat1951]

RE: HCG and Transdermal Gels

RE: The very best TRT regimen is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG....

I am on a few different HRT / TRT Boards. Some more active than others. Some "lurking" and some behind the scnes e-mailing.

What I find repeatedly is that SWALE (Dr C) is considered one of "the Top Dawgs" in the TRT business. Dr Shippen still has a strong following and some local docs have sworn followers in their local ranks, but SWALE is still right up there at the top...

And yet I see a preponderance of TRT males who speak only of the IM shots as the way to go. And yet I see the statement (of SWALE) as quoted above. It seems that many (and not just on the Board) insist that IM shots are the only way to go. In private e-mails I have been told that

1. IM shots are better "because they're more like steroids", that IM shots "work quicker",
2. That IM shots deliver a "better quality testosterone than gels or creams", 3. Tthat "IM shots - if taken weekly - have much less E2 problems than transdermals" and even,
4. That "IM shots have - if taken weekly - have much less potential for raising hematocrit than transdermals"...

And yet I have read the exact opposite on the last two points and the first two points simply don't make sense.

So what's the real deal. I could see it making sense for some people possibly because of an expense viewpoint (things like AndroGel being patented are being sold for an unreasonable price - for what the substance is and what it actually costs) when comparing certain IMs against certain Gels.

So is "...the very best TRT regimen is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG???" And specifically why - as compares the the daily testosterone cream/gel as to Test IMs...

Thanks for the input!

Larry

 

[DavidZ]

Larry, you have asked some excellent questions and you stated them very well.

1. IM shots are better "because they're more like steroids", than IM shots "work quicker",

I have heard this, too, and I suspect that there's some truth to it. For example, some posters who have joint problems say that gels don't do it for them, but the shots makes their joint pain go away.

2. That IM shots deliver a "better quality testosterone than gels or creams",

That's probably BS. T is T.

3. That "IM shots - if taken weekly - have much less E2 problems than transdermals" and even,

There may be some truth to this one. Particularly for men with a lot of body fat because the T has to travel through some fat to get to the blood.

4. That "IM shots have - if taken weekly - have much less potential for raising hematocrit than transdermals"...

I agree with you that this seems wrong. Elevated T causes elevated hematocrit. If dosed properly, gel will minimize elevated T.

So is "...the very best TRT regimen is daily testosterone cream/gel and daily low-dose HCG???" And specifically why - as compares the the daily testosterone cream/gel as to Test IMs...

The "very best" protocol is the one that works best for YOU.

Thanks for the input!

You're welcome.

 

[stat1951]

RE: best TRT regimen

DavidZ,

Thanks (again) for info.

I have heard that also. Why would IM shots be more beneficial for joint pains than T delivered via a transdermal? One would think that T in the bloostream is T in the bloodstream, no matter whether it came via IM or via a transdermal.

Now I could see if the transdermal wasn't delivering as it was "supposed" to be. If, as an example, the 10 grams of AndroGel (two 5 gram packets) were actually only 8.3 grams (one packet being 3.9 grams and the other one 4.4 grams). And, in the example, the AndroGel wasn't really 1% strength (i.e., 83 mg of testosterone) but was an averaged out 0.73% strength (so 60.6mg of testosterone instead of the 83mg assumed). And instead of the 10% claimed that's getting through the skin barrier and into the bloodstream, that the averaged out level was 8% efficiency ratio. Guess what? The TRT patient is getting only 4.6 mg of testosterone from his "10 grams of AndroGel" rather than the 10 mg initially assumed.

If that represented an on-going "average", then the TRT patient switching over to an IM shot would see an huge difference, simply because the IM shot would be delivering an average 10mg testosterone daily (not exactly but close enough if getting weekly shots), no?

Is there some other factor that I'm missing?

Yes, point three I could see. That should be minimized if individual isn't applying over areas with higher BF though, correct? If shoulders / upper arms are more muscular and very little fat (and that's where application is taking place) then IM should have little advantage in the E2 area, no?

Ahh... still looking for the "best one" that applies for me! A shot once a week sounds good simply because it's less of a "hassle", but then one looks at the current recommendation of applying transdermals and doing HCG daily. Seems like recommendations go from simplier (the ancient 300 mg IM shot every three weeks) to more complex (transdermals and HCG daily)....

We need a Pharmaceutical to come through with a transdermal that would include not only varying levels of T but also of HCG and that would absorb at a very high efficency ratio and that would be completely absorbed within a couple minutes (no transference concerns) and because of its advanced transdermal efficiency levels would only be about a 1 gram packet!

 

[mranak]

I would say that T injections provide more consistant results than the transdermals. For example, some people have great success with the transdermals at first, but then the benefit (or even the serum testosterone) sometimes decline.

 

[SWALE]

This has turned into a really good thread.

Gels work quicker. No ifs, ands, buts. The response is nearly instantaneous.

TRT should not be "like taking steroids". That is not what this is about. Perhaps that statement came from someone who is not on APPROPRIATE TRT (well above normal range).

Statement 3 has some merit. However, I know how to control estrogen.

Statement 4 is nonsense. While testosterone boosts RBC production, more specifically ACCELERATIONS in serum levels accentuate same; just as they do increased aromatase activity.

What program is given patient is on is individualized. There certainly are different ways to elevate T levels. However, daily application of a transdermal, along with daily stimulation from HCG--for those willing to enage in the inconvenience--delivers the best of all worlds.

 

[Viper1]

Gels work quicker. No ifs, ands, buts. The response is nearly instantaneous.

How long would you give the gels a chance to work before moving on to something else?

 

[androjello]

Me personally, I gave it about a year. Now do IM shots, feel better, have LOWER total and free test.

Gels are to much a pain, plus I was always worrying whether it was absorbing or not, rubbing off, sweating, showering, etc...

Shots, at least I know it's in me and only 1x a week do I have to do anything.

 

[stat1951]

That should also depend on what lvels you are doing and what brands.

If at 5 grams of AndroGel, maybe you need to move up to 7.5 grams or even to 10 grams.

Also there's been much discussion on another Board about AndroGel and Testim and a significant majority of transdermal gel users over there have reported problems with AndroGel (quality control problems with half-empty packets) and beliefs that the claimed 10% is not getting across the skin barrier and into the blood. Reports of Testim getting 13 - 15% transdermal efficiency ratios (in comparison) have been noted.

One individual reported getting to only something like 440-ish on two 5 grams of AndroGel and being switched to two 6-gram tubes of Testim... and jumping up to something like 839 (and his endo had him drop down to one tube of 5 grams Testim... sounded like 830 was pretty decent if his other labs were good)!

How long would you give the gels a chance to work before moving on to something else?

 

[stat1951]

Have seen posts also indicating the opposite. New member that just came on the Hypogonadism2 (yahoo) Board is a British fellow who was switched from IM shots to AndroGel (I believe they called it Testogel) and then to Testim... because he was having problems with maintaining a consistent level with IM shots... And there's one guy over there who preaches the consistency and super results that he gets from pellets!!!

Different strokes - different folks?

I would say that T injections provide more consistant results than the transdermals. For example, some people have great success with the transdermals at first, but then the benefit (or even the serum testosterone) sometimes decline.

 

[Kroms_laugh]

Two reasons I decided to go with injections instead of gels...
1) I never want to come home to see my 2 year old sucking on an androgel patch that somehow made it's way onto the floor or out of the counter-top trash-bin.
2) There is something about watching the actual testosterone enter your system that has a placebo affect. Call me crazy, but watching myself put testosterone into my system has a reassuring affect on my mental state.

 

[Viper1]

That should also depend on what lvels you are doing and what brands.

If at 5 grams of AndroGel, maybe you need to move up to 7.5 grams or even to 10 grams.

Also there's been much discussion on another Board about AndroGel and Testim and a significant majority of transdermal gel users over there have reported problems with AndroGel (quality control problems with half-empty packets) and beliefs that the claimed 10% is not getting across the skin barrier and into the blood. Reports of Testim getting 13 - 15% transdermal efficiency ratios (in comparison) have been noted.

One individual reported getting to only something like 440-ish on two 5 grams of AndroGel and being switched to two 6-gram tubes of Testim... and jumping up to something like 839 (and his endo had him drop down to one tube of 5 grams Testim... sounded like 830 was pretty decent if his other labs were good)!

The reason I asked was that my doctor agreed to let me try 5gram Androgel after I complained that 606 was too low for my T level. After 5 weeks on Androgel, I got tested again and my T level dropped to 434 so he gave me some Testim to try but I was told to wait for a few weeks and get another blood test to see if my natural T production might have got restarted before I tried the Testim. So I don't know if the Testim will have the same effect or not.

 

[mranak]

Have seen posts also indicating the opposite. New member that just came on the Hypogonadism2 (yahoo) Board is a British fellow who was switched from IM shots to AndroGel (I believe they called it Testogel) and then to Testim... because he was having problems with maintaining a consistent level with IM shots... And there's one guy over there who preaches the consistency and super results that he gets from pellets!!!

I'm guessing the guy that used to be doing IM shots wasn't doing them weekly. Without a doubt, transdermal is better than 2-4 weeks between IM shots.