Switched protocols...could really use some input

[Sonny]

Hi All:

I was on a Swale's protocol for several months, but ended up needing to change things a bit. Before I continue, I have to say that Swale's protocol was a monumental improvement over my endo's previous recommendation (400mg Test Cyp every 3 weeks).

Old Protocol
Test Cyp: 100mg on Fridays
HCG: 250 iu on Wednesday and Thursday

Lab Results after several months (taken 3 days after Test Cyp inj)
Total T: 733 (241-827)
Free T: 31.3 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 26 (13-54)
DHT: 46 (25-75)
LH: 0.2 (1.5-9.3)

Pros: Often (not always) felt good, slept well, libido was up/down but good when it was up
Cons: Recurring problems with dizziness

The dizziness is a big problem for me. I drive a lot and I work with a lot of power tools (chopsaw, bandsaw, several welders, etc). I am on lithium and I (as well as my p-doc) suspect that *somehow*, there is an interaction.

New Protocol
Test Cyp: 80mg on Fridays (-20%)
HCG: 200mg on Tues-Thurs (+20%)

Pros: Dizziness problems completely gone (YEAH)
Cons: Overall I don't feel as well, sleep quality is worse, libido is worse (ugh)

Lab results after 1 month:
Total T: 611 (241-827)
Free T: 30.5 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 29 (13-54)
DHT: 30 (25-75)
LH: 0.2 (1.5-9.3)

--

I'm not sure what to do. I felt better on the first protocol, but it caused problems that i had to address.

I decided to add in 10mg of Nolvadex ED on the off chance that my Total Estrogens were too high even though my E2 was within range (this appears to happen to some people). I feel worse on the Nolvadex. I feel more mentally-dulled.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Sonny

 

[mranak]

I wonder what caused that dizziness. I also wonder if the lower DHT is to blame for not feeling as well.

 

[Sonny]

Just got my latest labs after week 6 of being on 80mg Test/600iu HCG. There is no Nolvadex in this picture either. I started Nolvadex the day after I got this labwork done.

Total T: 507 (241-827)
Free T: 30.1 (9.5-43.0)
E2: 28 (13-54)
DHT: 21 (25-75) (low)
LH: 0.2 (1.5-9.3)

It almost looks as if Androgel would be a better option for me. My endo is dead against it though. He's a "shots are superior" kind of guy. The other problem is that my insurance won't cover it.

Sonny

 

[mxim]

i'll bet the proverbial farm that the lithium is the proble. lithium can cause dizziness,make you feel tired,and hurt your libido. your results are great and you should be feeling great. i would keep the T at 100mgs per week and do something about the lithium,perhaps a new drug.
mxim

 

[pmgamer18]

One way I know of that will drive up your DHT is to put Androgel or Testim on your penis. A lot of us were doing this at the Yahoo Hypogonadism2 group and the head guy still does. After putting on the gel what was left on the hands we rubbed on the penis. If did not sting I feel because of the use of it on the arms and shoulders first. But doing this 3 x's a week drove up are DHT to 3x's the top of the range. The thinking was after reading Dr. Shippens book he talked about use a cream much weaker then Andorgel or Testim to help rebuild the muscles in the groin to help with ED and reaching an orgasm. Here is a cut a past of a post about it.
Phil
--- In hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com, philip georgian
<pmgamer18@y...> wrote:But I can't help but think that the Testim and
Androgel is a lot stronger then what Dr. Shippen is talking about.
Can you take a look at this and let me know what you think.----

Hi Phil, you *would* ask me to do math! LOL Don't you realize
I'm 'mathematically challenged'!?
Well maybe it keeps the 'math cells' in my brain from atrophying!

Shippen's recommended compounded cream is half the strength of Testim
and Androgel. The dose he suggests for topical application to the
penis and scrotum 3 times weekly is a small dab.

Testim and Androgel are both 1% testosterone mixtures. (1% of any
given quantity of Testim or Androgel is pure testosterone.)

Shippen's recommended compounded cream contains 5mg testosterone per
single gram (1000 mg) of cream. This is a .5% testosterone mixture
(half the strength of Testim and Androgel).

Shippen recommends a quarter teaspoon or one gram (1000 mg) dose
for topical use on genitalia 3 times weekly.

One such dose of Testim or Androgel contains 10 mg testosterone.
An equal dose of Shippen's cream contains 5 mg testosterone.

Rachel

 

[maximus_1967]

blood pressure

I'd guess blood pressure was the cause ,it was with me!!!

 

[ciobl]

Sonny -> you might try hcg alone and see how it goes from there. ( this is from personal experience )

remember other members have already said to find the right dosage with hcg only protocol is kinda tricky and time consuming.

i have never heard anyone with hcg only protocol and satisfactory and optimal levels to add cypionate because of the supposed 'subjective benefits' and maintaining the same after the addition.

in my opinion it is either one or the other one...yes, its true it has been proven that both compounds work better in conjuction as doctor swale has recommended and it makes sense but at the same time other doctors have found hcg only protocol as beneficial as the t/hcg dosage.

don't get me wrong, it is great to find the same bros on this forum, great if their appearance is to contribute or chill out on the board, but...to see them back and forth with problems without resolution ??? something needs to be changed.

when i look around i see bros like yourself on the same starting point, more or less some improvements but usually coming back because of some problematic issues.

i think people under cypionate treatment do not have the same mental agility as others with a different kind of treatment on hrt.

it is undeniable testosterone gives the person the strength like no other pharmaceutical compound out there, except anabolic steroids.

but what are we talking about here ? raising t levels within appropiate levels to feel better or to raise t levels to compare ourselves with that guy at the gym lifting those heavy plates ?

yes, i want the strength but just the one i am supposed to have if no medical condition was present, no more no less.

just my opinion, take care bro.

 

[foreverdown92]

what area of california are you from? What is your doc's name?

 

[Sonny]

I am in the SF East Bay Area of CA. Drop me a PM if you think my doc might be worth pursuing. I gotta be honest though...HRT is not his specialty. He's an endo, but diabetes is his specialty.

My HRT treatment through him has basically been me showing him other HRT specialist regimens (Swale's) and him ok'ing what I do.

As for me, I dropped the Nolvadex a week into it. I wasn't sure if it was making me feel worse, but it was definitely not making me feel better.

I have been on HCG only (200 iu/day) for about 10 days now and am feeling very good. I don't know if it was the BA in the Test Cyp or just an interaction with it and the other meds I take, but something was going on. For me, HCG alone has been a better approach given the meds that I take every day. Everyone is different though.

Sonny