Tendon degeneration pain relief?

[Hardcoreboy]

is there any peptide that would help the tendon degeneration? the pain is often unbearable.

 

[aljowa]

The popular protocol nowadays would be BPC-157 and/or TB-500. BPC-157 is typically dosed at 500mcg - 1mg per day, which can be dosed in a single injection every 24 hours or two injections 8-12 hours apart (intramuscular or subcutaneous, with the injection site being largely irrelevant). TB-500 is typically dosed at 5mg - 10mg per week (longer half-life than BPC), which can be dosed every 3.5 days (intramuscular or subcutaneous).

The dosage protocols of both of these peptides can vary pretty widely depending on the individual, but these are the most common dosages I've seen. Theoretically, if cost is not an issue, you could increase the doses substantially higher than the dosages I suggested. The length of the cycle would be determined by your symptoms. Ideally, you would run your cycle until your symptoms are gone or negligible. A lot of anecdotes I've come across seem to fall in the 30 - 60 day range. I've personally only used BPC-157, and my protocol was 1mg/day for ~40 days to help alleviate left triceps tendonitis. It took a couple weeks for me to notice relief, and I also trained exclusively in the 15-20 rep range for all upper body pushing exercises during this period to reduce the absolute load on the tendon (I would suggest you do the same for all movements that aggravate your affected tendon, train them in the 15-30 rep range). At the end of my cycle, my left triceps tendon pain was reduced from a 7-8/10 pain level to a 3/10 pain level (I probably could have extended the cycle for more benefits, but honestly once I ran out of BPC I was just too lazy to order more and didn't feel like spending the money, lol).

Now, I don't have personal experience with this, but allegedly HGH can work wonders for soft tissue injuries, and is considered to be the true gold standard for healing injuries of that variety. I'm not going to recommend any specific protocol, since I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of HGH to give specific advice, but it may be something you want to look into and consider (and perhaps a more knowledgeable user here can chime in).

Best of luck with the healing and recovery, tendonitis can be a real pain in the ass. Wish you the best.

 

[Hardcoreboy]

The popular protocol nowadays would be BPC-157 and/or TB-500. BPC-157 is typically dosed at 500mcg - 1mg per day, which can be dosed in a single injection every 24 hours or two injections 8-12 hours apart (intramuscular or subcutaneous, with the injection site being largely irrelevant). TB-500 is typically dosed at 5mg - 10mg per week (longer half-life than BPC), which can be dosed every 3.5 days (intramuscular or subcutaneous).

The dosage protocols of both of these peptides can vary pretty widely depending on the individual, but these are the most common dosages I've seen. Theoretically, if cost is not an issue, you could increase the doses substantially higher than the dosages I suggested. The length of the cycle would be determined by your symptoms. Ideally, you would run your cycle until your symptoms are gone or negligible. A lot of anecdotes I've come across seem to fall in the 30 - 60 day range. I've personally only used BPC-157, and my protocol was 1mg/day for ~40 days to help alleviate left triceps tendonitis. It took a couple weeks for me to notice relief, and I also trained exclusively in the 15-20 rep range for all upper body pushing exercises during this period to reduce the absolute load on the tendon (I would suggest you do the same for all movements that aggravate your affected tendon, train them in the 15-30 rep range). At the end of my cycle, my left triceps tendon pain was reduced from a 7-8/10 pain level to a 3/10 pain level (I probably could have extended the cycle for more benefits, but honestly once I ran out of BPC I was just too lazy to order more and didn't feel like spending the money, lol).

Now, I don't have personal experience with this, but allegedly HGH can work wonders for soft tissue injuries, and is considered to be the true gold standard for healing injuries of that variety. I'm not going to recommend any specific protocol, since I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of HGH to give specific advice, but it may be something you want to look into and consider (and perhaps a more knowledgeable user here can chime in).

Best of luck with the healing and recovery, tendonitis can be a real pain in the ass. Wish you the best.

Thank you ! will try those!

 

[Astartes]

is there any peptide that would help the tendon degeneration? the pain is often unbearable.

Want the honest answer from someone who has tried everything? (and wishes he learned this 20 years ago)

Stop Overtraining
Stop Lifting Heavy
Higher Reps
Less Sets
More Recovery
Full Range of Motion
Eccentric Focus (Negative)

Nothing else is a serious consideration if what you are referring to is Tendonosis. (Not simple tendonitis)

BPC/TB, Prednisone and HGH will not solve the root problem. (Overtraining/Heavy Lifting)

 

[iris]

As mentioned by Astartes above me, I am not sure what you mean by degradation.
Degeneration as damage caused by overuse?

Have you seen someone who has diagnosed this + maybe got you to have imagining of the injury?

 

[Astartes]

As a side comment. If your Tendonosis/Tendon degeneration is related to adrenal cortisol deficiency avoid HGH and Prednisone.

Prednisone can shut it down and there is evidence HGH can decrease cortisol release in healthy men while making cortisol metabolism more efficient doubling down on the deficiency.

 

[Hardcoreboy]

As mentioned by Astartes above me, I am not sure what you mean by degradation.
Degeneration as damage caused by overuse?

Have you seen someone who has diagnosed this + maybe got you to have imagining of the injury?

Yes, the diagnosis was given by the Ortopedian based on magnetic images. Penetrating tears were not visible in the pictures. I've also had a cortisone injection for it a few times. I have also been using statins for several years, which I decided to stop just to be safe, because I read that they can also cause problems with the tendons.

 

[iris]

Yes, the diagnosis was given by the Ortopedian based on magnetic images. Penetrating tears were not visible in the pictures. I've also had a cortisone injection for it a few times. I have also been using statins for several years, which I decided to stop just to be safe, because I read that they can also cause problems with the tendons.

Right.
They always give you corticosteroids, ok for inflammation but it is thought they may, at the same time, adversely affect tendon integrity or healing.
It's just the standard, go to thing with this sort of condition.
I was supposed to have the kind of treatment you were given, but have held out.

Astartes was spot on when he told you to consider what you are doing and the loads you are using.
Can we ask you how old you are, like 30s, 40s.... roughly.

I was thinking whether you tried shockwave therapy.
Depending on where you live, it can be quite expensive and you would need a course of sessions. But it may be worth a try.
I do not know whether it would actually work.
It's one of those things that has gained popularity but, unless you try, you don't know.

Maybe someone on the forum has tried it and can report on it.

 

[b3n]

I would like to throw in the keywords tempo (of reps) and time-under-tension.

Where tempo consists of four digits:
- duration-of-concentric-movement
- duration-of-top-hold
- duration-of-eccentric-movement
- duration-of-bottom-hold

Thinking of this, adapting as needed and focusing helps not to aggravate the situation.

 

[b3n]

Which tendons are we talking about btw?

 

[Hardcoreboy]

Right.
They always give you corticosteroids, ok for inflammation but it is thought they may, at the same time, adversely affect tendon integrity or healing.
It's just the standard, go to thing with this sort of condition.
I was supposed to have the kind of treatment you were given, but have held out.

Astartes was spot on when he told you to consider what you are doing and the loads you are using.
Can we ask you how old you are, like 30s, 40s.... roughly.

I was thinking whether you tried shockwave therapy.
Depending on where you live, it can be quite expensive and you would need a course of sessions. But it may be worth a try.
I do not know whether it would actually work.
It's one of those things that has gained popularity but, unless you try, you don't know.

Maybe someone on the forum has tried it and can report on it.

I'm going to try that Shockwave therapy. I saw that the prices here are 20-30€ when visiting a physiotherapist. Thanks for the tip. All means are welcome. 40s...

 

[Hardcoreboy]

Which tendons are we talking about btw?

The subscapularis tendon.

 

[b3n]

Could be induced by shoulder impingement. Does the humerus look centered in the shoulder socket on the MRI image?
If not, start decompression training.

You could try this the next time when you feel the pain creeping in: Start with a 2.5 kg dumbell in one hand, standing upright. Now relax the shoulder to the point where you no longer activate shoulder muscles (think passive stretch). It can be a new sensation, so be careful. If it does not give you a good stretch, increase the weight stepwise.

Hold it for at least 1 minute. If you are impinged chances are the exercise itself does not feel good immediately, but the relief after

Once you are familiar with this exercise, you can play with palm and neck angles very very carefully to tune the stretch even further.

Good luck!

 

[Davidinovg]

I'm going to try that Shockwave therapy. I saw that the prices here are 20-30€ when visiting a physiotherapist. Thanks for the tip. All means are welcome. 40s...

That's too cheap imo.

Look for eco-guided shockwave therapy which is different from the classic one, get some info on internet.

In Italy I pay 100€ each session, but with 3 sessions after 3/4 months I was good.

I had tendon calcifications in the supraspinatus.

 

[Hardcoreboy]

That's too cheap imo.

Look for eco-guided shockwave therapy which is different from the classic one, get some info on internet.

In Italy I pay 100€ each session, but with 3 sessions after 3/4 months I was good.

I had tendon calcifications in the supraspinatus.

The price is in connection with the physical therapist's reception, which costs €80 in itself.

 

[ThinBulk]

With my own problems, BPC, TB4, and HGH do work, but not without getting more rest.

Which tendon is this effecting? A strange thing I've learned from climbing is that tendons build up far differently than muscles. Putting big stress on tendons, then resting them for 3 days doesn't work well. Tendons have a very short period where the bulk of their repair takes place. Try doing slow exercises with 20-30% of max 1-2 times per day, along with being easier on real training days. After basically two weeks, I went from constant flares to being almost 100% again. I've taken more than this amount of time resting multiple times, and didn't get nearly the same results.

 

[iris]

With my own problems, BPC, TB4, and HGH do work, but not without getting more rest.

Which tendon is this effecting? A strange thing I've learned from climbing is that tendons build up far differently than muscles. Putting big stress on tendons, then resting them for 3 days doesn't work well. Tendons have a very short period where the bulk of their repair takes place. Try doing slow exercises with 20-30% of max 1-2 times per day, along with being easier on real training days. After basically two weeks, I went from constant flares to being almost 100% again. I've taken more than this amount of time resting multiple times, and didn't get nearly the same results.

The subscapularis tendon.

 

[UncleBuns]

Tendons heal and get stronger from high tension short duration Isometrics and you can heal the tendon matrix and the tendon structures through stretching them via eccentric high load movements holding the stretch at the end of the eccentric.

Methods I've found to help tendons:

- Short duration high intensity isometric. The kind of movement you would do depends on what tendon is degenerative but an example is holding your arm at 120 deg, hand gripping a bar, 80 - 90% ish intensity, about 10 - 15 seconds, static.

- Eccentric only, slow movement, hold stretch at end, 5 - 10 reps. An example would be holding a dumbbell as you would for bicep curl, use the other hand to assist in raising it to the end position of the concentric movement (The concentric part is only to get the weight in position and is not part of the exercise), then slowly lower the dumbbell over about 12 seconds, when you get to the position of the arm being extended, hold the weight for another 12ish seconds, allowing the tendon to stretch under tension. 3 sets.

If the recommended load or volume is too much at first, no problem. Use a tolerable load and number of reps and sets and build up overtime. These exercises can cause discomfort but should not cause serious pain. If you feel serious pain, lower the weight and reps as needed.

I have had chronic tendon issues and have tried many things. Those two things done three times a week cured me. It took months and now I just do them regularly throughout the year and what used to be a debilitating issue has not come back.

Tendons react very differently than muscles and if you are training tendons or healing them, the protocols are very different than muscle issues.

The main thing that degrades tendons is volume. You must avoid volume while you are healing them. High intensity training on top of the therapy sets is okay if it is tolerated and not painful.

Do not get anymore steroid injections, those degrade tendons. Also, do not take anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen as those degrade tendons. The antibiotic ciprofloxacin is also quite harmful to tendons. There are likely other medications as well, but those are the ones I am aware of.

It sounds like your issue is pretty bad but don't despair. What works for me may not work for you but just keep trying until you find what works. You can heal them. They take longer than muscles though, so you must be consistent and patient.

 

[Astartes]

With my own problems, BPC, TB4, and HGH do work, but not without getting more rest.

Which tendon is this effecting? A strange thing I've learned from climbing is that tendons build up far differently than muscles. Putting big stress on tendons, then resting them for 3 days doesn't work well. Tendons have a very short period where the bulk of their repair takes place. Try doing slow exercises with 20-30% of max 1-2 times per day, along with being easier on real training days. After basically two weeks, I went from constant flares to being almost 100% again. I've taken more than this amount of time resting multiple times, and didn't get nearly the same results.

Incorrect.

Tendons have an extremely long repair period. Micro Tears due to tendonitis inflammation often further exacerbate the issue.

Tendons initially repair with Collagen 3 which is not as high in tensile strength and if looked at under microscope the fibers are not as uniform and directional. Over a 12 to 18 month period your body replaces Collagen 3 with Collagen 1 which has higher tensile strength.

You can see the vicious cycle this creates with repeated injury.

Tendons also heal better when put under light to medium loads _without_ injury. Thus resting becomes problematic after 7-10 days off as some inflammatory response is needed to break down scarring and stimulate collagen repair/synthesis.

Also, counterintuitively tendon injury is often _exacerbated_ by HGH use as HGH tends to mute the adrenal cortisol production and metabolism of cortisol increases.

This over inflates inflammatory response and becomes another cycle for athletes.

 

[Hardcoreboy]

Update.. I'm getting Synvisc One in my shoulder. intended for the treatment of pain caused by osteoarthritis of the knee. One injection can relieve pain for up to 6 to 12 months. Synvicsin contains viscosupplements, i.e. synovial fluid substitutes, intended for the temporary replacement of damaged synovial fluid. Hope this helps!