Test Enth, Prop cycle advice .... with roidcalc graph

[gghost]

Hey fellas!

So, I'm on my way into running a legit, planned cycle and I'd like your advice.

I'm 34 and weigh in at 190 (15-20% BF). I was 185 last summer and was pushing 10-15% bf, but I wanted to start adding bulk and with it came a chubbier midsection (not sure how, but hey, whatever, ill just run some more next spring to slough it off). I stopped running everyday and hit the weights harder (kept the calories where they were, relatively).

I screwed around with some prop and deca when I was in the military (12 years ago), but totally eff'd it by not following through with PCT.

I do have pubescent(sp?)-spurred gyno in my nips already (wife says no, but I know it's there). No, it wasn't from the botch'd cycle in the military, cause I remember my cousin giving me titty twisters and saying, 'god damn, J, you have some meat behind them things!" -- They hurt like hell, too. I'm not sayin' I didn't add to the problem, but surely I didn't help it either. No, I don't have man-boobs, sorry to disappoint; however, they are 'puffy,' and I do often do the 'pinch' to make 'em hard.

What I'm getting at:
--I am concerned with developing gyno during the cycle, and
--I am concerned with the PCT crash

On to the good stuff...

I initially planned on running a 12 week cycle of Test E only, but I was bothered by the fact that it (1) takes so long to 'kick' in, and (2) it takes so long to exit your system to start PCT.

So, I was thinking of running Prop at the beginning and end to kick start the process and levels to a (relatively) stable range and keep it there for a longer duration while also limiting my time to PCT. Longer, stable levels are good, right?!

So, the cycle would look like this:
10 wks of Test E 600mg
1-2 100 EOD Test Prop
3 - 75mg, then 50mg Test Prop (this, if looked at on a graph levels it out and doesn't 'spike' too bad)
4 - 25mg Prop
10- Last Test E shot, then 50 and 75 of Test Prop
11 - 100x4 Prop
12 100, 150, 100 (keeps it fairly level until drop)

This is where I am a bit fuzzy... So, now should I wait another two weeks to start PCT, or should I hit PCT after about 4 days (last Prop shot)?

With the half-lives being considered, I still have two weeks (or so) of the Enth in my system, no?

Any and all advice, criticisms, or otherwise is greatly appreciated.

Thanks fellas!!

 

[gghost]

I meant to post the graph, but i'm not sure how to do so...

 

[gghost]

Here's the graph...

Yellow is the Test E, and black is the Prop. Thoughts?

[/URL]

 

[jJjburton]

Now that is complicated. But it can work i guess.

Maybe just do weeks 1-4 testp at 300-600 mg a week.
While Test E kicks in at 600 mg a week.
Then end cycle with same thing as started for quicker PCT. weeks 10-14.

 

[grey]

So, the cycle would look like this:
10 wks of Test E 600mg
1-2 100 EOD Test Prop
3 - 75mg, then 50mg Test Prop (this, if looked at on a graph levels it out and doesn't 'spike' too bad)
4 - 25mg Prop
10- Last Test E shot, then 50 and 75 of Test Prop
11 - 100x4 Prop
12 100, 150, 100 (keeps it fairly level until drop)

As long as you can keep track and comply with that dosing schedule then cool...

I am lazy and know I would miss something so I would simplify, it isn't going to make a mountain of difference in gains either way.

Would check out the Mike Scally PCT thread here. generally the answer is going to be to wait a bit longer than what you are planning.


What is your diet and programming looking like for the cycle?

 

[gghost]

Now that is complicated. But it can work i guess.

Maybe just do weeks 1-4 testp at 300-600 mg a week.
While Test E kicks in at 600 mg a week.
Then end cycle with same thing as started for quicker PCT. weeks 10-14.

As long as you can keep track and comply with that dosing schedule then cool...

I am lazy and know I would miss something so I would simplify, it isn't going to make a mountain of difference in gains either way.

Would check out the Mike Scally PCT thread here. generally the answer is going to be to wait a bit longer than what you are planning.


What is your diet and programming looking like for the cycle?

So, the way I am understanding it is that you want to wait until the longest ester is out of your system, right? So if I am thinking correctly, then if I quit Test E on week 10, I would have to bridge 10-14 with Prop and then 4 days after last shot start PCT, correct?

If that is correct, then I'll have to ramp up the Prop (25, 50, 100, 150....) while the Enth is tapering down (talking the sum of test levels in system) to keep a stable level of test in my system?

Thanks for your response @grey and @jJjburton !

I haven't quite decided on a program yet; probably going to be a split of some sort, staying with what Im doing already, just add in more isolated movements. I am already probably overtraining..

Food wise, I eat clean as it is (well,.. beer will definitely go) and will ramp up proteins, carbs, fats, etc.. again, still not 100%.

 

[grey]

you want to wait until the longest ester is out of your system, right

You want to wait until the exo test is gone. If you are still awash in a mix of the last of the longs and a bunch of shorts you are still too early.

That said, I am no PCT guy since I never come off (TRT).

Would hit the PCT thread for that specific q.

probably going to be a split of some sort, staying with what Im doing already, just add in more isolated movements. I am already probably overtraining..

Why do you think you are overtrained now?

What are your current macros and daily cal totals?

 

[Big_paul]

Here's the graph...

Yellow is the Test E, and black is the Prop. Thoughts?

[/URL]

Looks good to me. The levels of both compounds drop to a point where you can run pct.

The graph determines when you start pct assuming you have entered the correct half life. If test isn't low enough, below normal for your body, you will not be ready for pct.

Your best defence is against gyno is nolva, 10-20mg ed. I would still run an AI to reduce e2 to an acceptable level.

Good to see you putting some thought into a cycle.

 

[gghost]

You want to wait until the exo test is gone. If you are still awash in a mix of the last of the longs and a bunch of shorts you are still too early.

That said, I am no PCT guy since I never come off (TRT).

Would hit the PCT thread for that specific q.




Why do you think you are overtrained now?

What are your current macros and daily cal totals?

Honestly, I'd have to get that together as I don't have it mapped out like that.... Something I am going to work on very very soon. I want to do this as efficiently and effectively as possible.

As far as overtraining, I am working out at least 5-6 days a week, including running. Gains are very minimal. When I take a few days off (3-4) I am so much stronger in the gym. Could be mental, maybe?

 

[grey]

As far as overtraining, I am working out at least 5-6 days a week, including running. Gains are very minimal. When I take a few days off (3-4) I am so much stronger in the gym. Could be mental, maybe?

Could be nutritional too especially depending on the nature of the running?

 

[jJjburton]

Also If you run after you lift it could be hurting your gains.

For example if your running after an 1:30 min hard lift, then run for 1 hr its going to be negative. Run at a different time then when you lift.

You body is just recovering more when you take more days off. Fix your diet for maximal recovery. You are not overtraining. Your muscles might be a little tired and not performing the movements right.

Regarding PCT, you have to wait until test is low. I dont PCT.

 

[gghost]

Also If you run after you lift it could be hurting your gains.

For example if your running after an 1:30 min hard lift, then run for 1 hr its going to be negative. Run at a different time then when you lift.

You body is just recovering more when you take more days off. Fix your diet for maximal recovery. You are not overtraining. Your muscles might be a little tired and not performing the movements right.

Regarding PCT, you have to wait until test is low. I dont PCT.

What's your recommendation to fix diet for maximal recovery? Can ya point me in the right direction on this; I am very interested to know more about it.

I don't run that long right now.... too hot. Fall/Winter/Spring Ill hit the longer runs.

 

[jJjburton]

What's your recommendation to fix diet for maximal recovery? Can ya point me in the right direction on this; I am very interested to know more about it.

I don't run that long right now.... too hot. Fall/Winter/Spring Ill hit the longer runs.

how much you weigh and how much you lift. If using aas.

Then 200-300 g protein. 600-800 g carbs. 50-100 g fat. 40 g fiber. This works for many

 

[oldmusclemike]

You are over thinking this whole cycle. You are concerned with Gyno and not mentioning anything about keeping your Estrogen in control.
First if you are going to cycle you would do much better to avoid side effects such as Gyno by getting your BF% down to a max of 15% or even below.

If you are concerned with Gyno then you need to familiarize yourself with the side effects of High Estrogen or (E2) All of these begin with high E2.

Exogenous Test is known to Aromatize and cause the Gyno. Other compounds such as Deca will do the same. Read up on the more Aromatizing steroids and educate yourself a bit more before cycling. Learning about Estrogen and Prolactin will help you to understand how this works and how to control them.

I didn't see your plans for your AI to help control the rise in estrogen wich is going to happen. Your planned cycle with 1-4 weeks of Test Prop @ 100mgs EOD with Test E @ 500-600mgs wk is good but also plan some Arimidex @ .25 EOD.

You need some pre-cycle BW and mid cycle BW min to watch your Estrogen levels and be familiar with the sides so help monitor you own body to tweak the Adex.

OP you also speak of BF%'s of like 10-15% or 15-20 % well that's a big difference 5% each way so I don't know what you talk of. Imagine me saying well I'm at 5-10% well. ? Hmm?

 

[gghost]

I think you're right in the overthinking part, @oldmusclemike, it's a relative 'problem' I have. It's great in some instances, but terrible in others.

You are also right in saying that I had not mentioned keeping estrogen in check, but being the over thinker, I have that in my mind. I have aromasin and letro(in case) on hand for managing e2 while in cycle. I do plan on getting bloods next week for a baseline, and then again when my levels are relatively stable to monitor everything. I was planning on starting the minimal dose of aromasin after a week or so in to the cycle.

I also have PCT planned and I have Hcg, too. I'm on the fence with the Hcg though. If I do use it then I'm planning on running it the last 4 weeks instead of the entire cycle.

Concerning the bf%: there are so many conflicting opinions (or so I've seen) as to what percentage is actually correct, so I don't want to say definitively what I 'think' it may be, so I gave a range. Not a good idea, I know, but I figured it was better than nothing.

Do you have a specific home test that you know of that produces decent, reliable bf% results?

Thanks for the response!!

You are over thinking this whole cycle. You are concerned with Gyno and not mentioning anything about keeping your Estrogen in control.
First if you are going to cycle you would do much better to avoid side effects such as Gyno by getting your BF% down to a max of 15% or even below.

If you are concerned with Gyno then you need to familiarize yourself with the side effects of High Estrogen or (E2) All of these begin with high E2.

Exogenous Test is known to Aromatize and cause the Gyno. Other compounds such as Deca will do the same. Read up on the more Aromatizing steroids and educate yourself a bit more before cycling. Learning about Estrogen and Prolactin will help you to understand how this works and how to control them.

I didn't see your plans for your AI to help control the rise in estrogen wich is going to happen. Your planned cycle with 1-4 weeks of Test Prop @ 100mgs EOD with Test E @ 500-600mgs wk is good but also plan some Arimidex @ .25 EOD.

You need some pre-cycle BW and mid cycle BW min to watch your Estrogen levels and be familiar with the sides so help monitor you own body to tweak the Adex.

OP you also speak of BF%'s of like 10-15% or 15-20 % well that's a big difference 5% each way so I don't know what you talk of. Imagine me saying well I'm at 5-10% well. ? Hmm?

 

[gghost]

@oldmusclemike, I meant to ask you what specifically you think I am 'overthinking' on the cycle? Is it the dosing? What are your suggestions on changing anything?

Thanks!

 

[Big pump]

You are over thinking this whole cycle. You are concerned with Gyno and not mentioning anything about keeping your Estrogen in control.
First if you are going to cycle you would do much better to avoid side effects such as Gyno by getting your BF% down to a max of 15% or even below.

If you are concerned with Gyno then you need to familiarize yourself with the side effects of High Estrogen or (E2) All of these begin with high E2.

Exogenous Test is known to Aromatize and cause the Gyno. Other compounds such as Deca will do the same. Read up on the more Aromatizing steroids and educate yourself a bit more before cycling. Learning about Estrogen and Prolactin will help you to understand how this works and how to control them.

I didn't see your plans for your AI to help control the rise in estrogen wich is going to happen. Your planned cycle with 1-4 weeks of Test Prop @ 100mgs EOD with Test E @ 500-600mgs wk is good but also plan some Arimidex @ .25 EOD.

You need some pre-cycle BW and mid cycle BW min to watch your Estrogen levels and be familiar with the sides so help monitor you own body to tweak the Adex.

OP you also speak of BF%'s of like 10-15% or 15-20 % well that's a big difference 5% each way so I don't know what you talk of. Imagine me saying well I'm at 5-10% well. ? Hmm?

Thank you

 

[Big pump]

I think you're right in the overthinking part, @oldmusclemike, it's a relative 'problem' I have. It's great in some instances, but terrible in others.

You are also right in saying that I had not mentioned keeping estrogen in check, but being the over thinker, I have that in my mind. I have aromasin and letro(in case) on hand for managing e2 while in cycle. I do plan on getting bloods next week for a baseline, and then again when my levels are relatively stable to monitor everything. I was planning on starting the minimal dose of aromasin after a week or so in to the cycle.

I also have PCT planned and I have Hcg, too. I'm on the fence with the Hcg though. If I do use it then I'm planning on running it the last 4 weeks instead of the entire cycle.

Concerning the bf%: there are so many conflicting opinions (or so I've seen) as to what percentage is actually correct, so I don't want to say definitively what I 'think' it may be, so I gave a range. Not a good idea, I know, but I figured it was better than nothing.

Do you have a specific home test that you know of that produces decent, reliable bf% results?

Thanks for the response!!

Goggle it! The military uses measurements of the body to calculate it. Just about any gym will have equipment to measure bf.

 

[gghost]

Ok, I'll check google out... I just thought those ways weren't too accurate.

When I was in, I few of my shorter buddies had to get their BMI cause of weight to height restrictions... They were all solid, but because they were short they got hit up for being over regs.

Not sure if they pulled bf.. Or is bmi the same thing?

 

[oldmusclemike]

I think you're right in the overthinking part, @oldmusclemike, it's a relative 'problem' I have. It's great in some instances, but terrible in others.

You are also right in saying that I had not mentioned keeping estrogen in check, but being the over thinker, I have that in my mind. I have aromasin and letro(in case) on hand for managing e2 while in cycle. I do plan on getting bloods next week for a baseline, and then again when my levels are relatively stable to monitor everything. I was planning on starting the minimal dose of aromasin after a week or so in to the cycle.

I appreciate your acknowledgement. It bothers me when I hear guys say I have an AI "ON HAND JUST IN CASE" because an AI should be USED to keep your Estrogen a normal range. Please understand the Simple Simon fact that when your Testosterone level increases out of the normal range your Estrogen WILL follow. How much depends on the dosage of AAS and the individual. In most all cases this will be different.

I also have PCT planned and I have Hcg, too. I'm on the fence with the Hcg though. If I do use it then I'm planning on running it the last 4 weeks instead of the entire cycle.

Concerning the bf%: there are so many conflicting opinions (or so I've seen) as to what percentage is actually correct, so I don't want to say definitively what I 'think' it may be, so I gave a range. Not a good idea, I know, but I figured it was better than nothing.

Do you have a specific home test that you know of that produces decent, reliable bf% results?

Thanks for the response!!