That can't be right!?

[Joey Z.]

In the latest issue of MUSCLEMAG, popular writer Nelson
Montana left me shaking my head (once again). In an
article on herbal SHBG inhibitors, he stated emphatically
that administering 200mg's of test cypionate a week will
elevate your total test 500 points over its current level.
That can't be right!?

 

[Bob Smith]

Why cant it be correct?

 

[Joey Z.]

What I am trying to say is that 200mg's of cyp should
raise it a hell of a lot more than 500 points!?

 

[Bob Smith]

I would think so, but Swale would be the one qualified to take a guess at that.

 

[Rod]

What I am trying to say is that 200mg's of cyp should
raise it a hell of a lot more than 500 points!?

I hate to keep bringing up the same study but: The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively."

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/c...ull/281/6/E1172

Interpolate from this study and you will get your answer, assuming that endogenous production will be nil if test is provided by some other means. Making the above assumption and not bothering myself with doing any math, 200mg test cyp. yielding 500ng/dl is very plausible.

But of course I am not an MD. Maybe Swale will tell us if that seems about right. I suspect he will say that you need to test to know (individual differences and such).

 

[Bob Smith]

Rod, what I think he is asking is if your endogenous test levels are, say 500ng/dl, already and then you add 200mg cyp, would the results be ~1000ng/dl (500 more than natural levels)?

 

[Rod]

Rod, what I think he is asking is if your endogenous test levels are, say 500ng/dl, already and then you add 200mg cyp, would the results be ~1000ng/dl (500 more than natural levels)?

Bob, thanks for pointing out what his question was. I didn't get it the first time. I'm a little slow. (I wish that there were an emoticon to express dullness.)

I would guess adding to a homeostatic 500ng/dl endogenous production 500ng/dl from exogenous sources would not result in 1000ng/dl. The body tries to maintain homeostasis. If the test level were increased through injections then I would suspect that the body would reduce endogenous production to correct for the imbalance. Would the decrease in endogenous production be proportionate to the exogenous addition I don't know? Maybe Swale can answer? Or maybe the best advice is that people are biochemically unique and to test is best.

 

[Joey Z.]

Guyz, "thanks" a lot for the discussion.

Bob, That's exactly what I'm asking. Those figures you
thru-out were the same given in Nelsons article. From
what I've previously read... I surmised taking 200mg's
of cyp would eventually lead to much higher test levels
than 1000.

Being someone who will be seeking HRT in the not to
distant future, I'm on some what of a fact finding
mission.


Rod, thanks for the link, unfortunately I was unable to
access that particular page - and thanks for taking the
time to answer my thread.

 

[Rod]

"Rod, thanks for the link, unfortunately I was unable to
access that particular page - and thanks for taking the
time to answer my thread."

Oops, try this: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172

 

[Joey Z.]

"Rod, thanks for the link, unfortunately I was unable to
access that particular page - and thanks for taking the
time to answer my thread."

Oops, try this: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172

Thanks for the link Rod, it was an interesting read.

 

[mxim]

[i've asked that question many times but never get a straight answer. however,i was injecting 125mgs of testosterone per week and my levels went from 305 to 1250. keep in mind,the blood test was done after 5 days not 7 so i suspect it would have been a tad lower after a full week but not that much. 200 mgs of test would raise you to about 1500ng;at least.
mxim

 

[DrMCM]

I don't think you can predict as everyone responds SOOO differently. I recently started HRT at 100mg/wk and I went from the low 200's to the low 400's.

 

[Joey Z.]

What I've learned from the last two replies is that you can't
make a blanket statement about how people will respond to
HRT - or another course of meds for that matter!

DrMCM, do you feel any different with your test levels at 400
as opposed to 200?

Thanks DrMCM & mxim.

 

[SWALE]

That's right: there is just no way to predict up front how a male will respond to a given dose of testosterone. I have had 250 lb'ers with lots of muscle go to 50% over the top of normal range on the same dose a skinny 140lb'er hardly got a bump from (with similar baselines).

The only appropriate way to initiate TRT is to provide a reasonable starting dose, then recheck once serum androgen levels have stabilized. A physician MUST closely follow with follow-up testing, also monitoring for other hormone levels, too, in order to optimize health and fitness. From what I have seen amongst the leaders in my field, 75-100mg per week is the usual appropriate starting dose for test cyp IM. I tend to be a bit more generous, so usually start out at 100mg per week--and go from there.

This is why it can NEVER be appropriate to start men out at 200mg per week, or to sell "programs" where you can buy a given amount of testosterone, and perhaps GH, up front. That would be like me walking through the Waiting Room, assigning drugs and dosages to patients I have never seen before.

 

[DrMCM]

What I've learned from the last two replies is that you can't
make a blanket statement about how people will respond to
HRT - or another course of meds for that matter!

DrMCM, do you feel any different with your test levels at 400
as opposed to 200?

Thanks DrMCM & mxim.

Better general mood, improved sleep, improved workouts. The improvements have been small and I expect things to get better as I move into the higher in the normal range.

 

[Joey Z.]

Better general mood, improved sleep, improved workouts. The improvements have been small and I expect things to get better as I move into the higher in the normal range.

DrMCM,

Sounds encouraging! Guess one's test level doesn't
have to be as high as I had previously thought, in
order to start feeling better.

"Better general mood, improved sleep, improved
workouts." - These are some of the things I've
been struggling with, myself.

 

[Joey Z.]

That's right: there is just no way to predict up front how a male will respond to a given dose of testosterone. I have had 250 lb'ers with lots of muscle go to 50% over the top of normal range on the same dose a skinny 140lb'er hardly got a bump from (with similar baselines).

The only appropriate way to initiate TRT is to provide a reasonable starting dose, then recheck once serum androgen levels have stabilized. A physician MUST closely follow with follow-up testing, also monitoring for other hormone levels, too, in order to optimize health and fitness. From what I have seen amongst the leaders in my field, 75-100mg per week is the usual appropriate starting dose for test cyp IM. I tend to be a bit more generous, so usually start out at 100mg per week--and go from there.

This is why it can NEVER be appropriate to start men out at 200mg per week, or to sell "programs" where you can buy a given amount of testosterone, and perhaps GH, up front. That would be like me walking through the Waiting Room, assigning drugs and dosages to patients I have never seen before.

SWALE,

Thanks for your informative response - and thanks for
your educational website!