The Passion of The Christ

[Bob Smith]

It is really nice to be able to have intellectual discussions with some of the guys on the board. Meso's membership come from all walks of life and I have developed a number of friendships from this board that I value very highly. Mind you, some go beyond the electronic world, I have met a few people from meso face to face.

So very true, Hogg. I was thinking the exact same thing as I was reading through all these posts. So often all we see in the Gen. Disc area are porn, drinking stories and other such mindless jabber. Its not very often that I find someone who is intellectually stimulating, either on Meso or in person. This thread has been a testament to the fact that some of us really are intelligent and can have a meaningful discussion about things with such great important. And nothing is more important than what happens after our physical death.

I have had many wonderful conversations away from Meso with Hogg, Phreezer and a couple other guys. It is a relief to be friends with upstanding guys that are intelligent and usually share some of the same beliefs as myself.

The largest obstacle I had before coming to Christ was the science vs faith arguements. The more and more I researched the science aspect of it, the more it ended up supporting the Bible and God, as opposed to showing any flaws in it. Thousands upon thousands of scientific discoveries have continued to prove the reliability of the Bible and accounts contained therein. Similar to what Hogg mentioned, I cant go outside and look at a tree or the workings of humans of the beauty of nature and NOT believe that it was all created by God.

 

[garyzilla]

It is really nice to be able to have intellectual discussions with some of the guys on the board. Meso's membership come from all walks of life and I have developed a number of friendships from this board that I value very highly. Mind you, some go beyond the electronic world, I have met a few people from meso face to face.

So very true, Hogg. I was thinking the exact same thing as I was reading through all these posts. So often all we see in the Gen. Disc area are porn, drinking stories and other such mindless jabber. Its not very often that I find someone who is intellectually stimulating, either on Meso or in person. This thread has been a testament to the fact that some of us really are intelligent and can have a meaningful discussion about things with such great important. And nothing is more important than what happens after our physical death.

I have had many wonderful conversations away from Meso with Hogg, Phreezer and a couple other guys. It is a relief to be friends with upstanding guys that are intelligent and usually share some of the same beliefs as myself.

The largest obstacle I had before coming to Christ was the science vs faith arguements. The more and more I researched the science aspect of it, the more it ended up supporting the Bible and God, as opposed to showing any flaws in it. Thousands upon thousands of scientific discoveries have continued to prove the reliability of the Bible and accounts contained therein. Similar to what Hogg mentioned, I cant go outside and look at a tree or the workings of humans of the beauty of nature and NOT believe that it was all created by God.

I agree with you Bob, this has been a most excellent post, with some great dialog! Thank-you so much for the story on how you came to Christ. I graduated from Baptist Bible College in Clarks Summit, Pa. I believe that I received the best education in thw world from BBC. I entered the college not knowing much, and came out four years later learning a ton. I really feel that I am prepared to anwser the worlds questions, about Christ, faith ect... But one thing I did was not take my professors word on what he/she was teaching me. I would have class and the research the big important topics myself to see if what I was being taught was the truth! I considered myself a Baptist with a little "b" which is a big deal.

Bob and Hogg and others if you would like to give me a call on the phone sometime just to talk about whatever, I am game. Just PM me and I will give you my number. I just had a great time talking to you all.

Here is a thought that I had, what about having a "Spirituality Topic" on meso. I would love to be a MOD on that. I am finding out more and more how important religion, spirituality are to bodybuilders. It is just a thought!

-Pastor Garyzilla

 

[thick]

sorry to hear about this experience. That must have been some of the longest hours of your life. As for me, I will watch it sometime. I do feel that a huge percentage of church goers are judgemental hypocrites and I have a very sour opinion towards churches. I say my prayers every night with my son and I am content with that

I walked into the movie theater never having read a review or a plot and thus had no idea what to expect. The combination of gore, the dolby sound system cranked up, and Ms Hogg balling her eyes out had me in a rather melancholy state within the first hour.

 

[Chip Bronson]

"Of course, I'm also a hell-bound heathen."

Grizzly, you are not a hell bound heathen. You are a sophisticated realist who can see beyond the popular myths that the rest of humanity must use to escape from grim reality.

ditto rodney...

 

[Chip Bronson]

and to add to my 'ditto rodney' (rod was being sarcastic, i was being truthful) reply, i don't need a movie about the alleged last 12 hours of christ's life to make me a better person. that is what 'religion' is all about right?

i stopped going to church and believing in an organized 'religion' when i was 14. since then i have been on a journey to find the greater meaning of life, if you will. i still haven't found it. regardless, i know i'm on the right track and that i'm contributing in a positive manner when i spend time in old-age home in my spare time entertaining those folks, or when i rescue a dog or cat and find them a home, or when i get up at 5am so i have enough time to walk my neighbor's dog because she's too tired from the chemo she's been getting. and i don't usually discuss my doing these things. i just do them.

this attitude, or outlook, comes from within me and that's where i think religion is to be found; inside of us. it's not always easy to see, and many of us don't want to see it much of the time, but's it's there. as hogg has stated, science has proven this and that's what guides me. not the church (the edifice), not the congregation, not the priests, not the bible and certainly not a movie.

so from where does this internal matrix derive and how do i access it? i'm really not sure as my journey is not yet complete and i still have far more questions than i do questions. but as i look around me, at my life and at the lives of others with whom i cross paths, i can see i'm on the right track.

 

[Hogg]

and to add to my 'ditto rodney' (rod was being sarcastic, i was being truthful) reply, i don't need a movie about the alleged last 12 hours of christ's life to make me a better person. that is what 'religion' is all about right?

i stopped going to church and believing in an organized 'religion' when i was 14. since then i have been on a journey to find the greater meaning of life, if you will. i still haven't found it. regardless, i know i'm on the right track and that i'm contributing in a positive manner when i spend time in old-age home in my spare time entertaining those folks, or when i rescue a dog or cat and find them a home, or when i get up at 5am so i have enough time to walk my neighbor's dog because she's too tired from the chemo she's been getting. and i don't usually discuss my doing these things. i just do them.

this attitude, or outlook, comes from within me and that's where i think religion is to be found; inside of us. it's not always easy to see, and many of us don't want to see it much of the time, but's it's there. as hogg has stated, science has proven this and that's what guides me. not the church (the edifice), not the congregation, not the priests, not the bible and certainly not a movie.

so from where does this internal matrix derive and how do i access it? i'm really not sure as my journey is not yet complete and i still have far more questions than i do questions. but as i look around me, at my life and at the lives of others with whom i cross paths, i can see i'm on the right track.

Ahhhhh, but now you've done it! You are eluding to the fact that you are a good person, essentially one who does right by his fellow man, yet an ardent Christian will tell you that this has nothing to do with salvation. Rather, they will fixate on the hard-line approach that being saved means believing that Christ died on the cross for your sins.......and unless you accept Christ as your savior, then you are walking aimlessly. Now, lets analyze this:

If a man has not read the Word nor has he received a sermon from a valid pastor, yet he still loves his fellow man and has a kind and caring heart (ie, one who seeks to do well by his brother), then is he not worthy of salvation even though he might not necessarily have been led to the path? Was it not love that Christ spoke of? Was it not a man's heart that Christ sought? Or is it merely a doctrine that is prescribed and must be followed - Ok, do you acknowledge Christ as your savior and believe that He died on the cross for your sins? Yes. Okay, next in line. Do you acknowledge Christ as your savior and believe that He died on the cross for your sins? Yes. Okay, next in line.

There has to be more to it than that......say for example a man lived in the wilderness, never saw a bible in his life, lived off the land, and never had dialog with a preacher.....yet acknowledged a higher power as a result of observing his surroundings, and never committed sin, would he not be worthy of salvation?

I find it hard to believe that Christ would discard such a person as unworthy; rather, I would be led to believe based on what I have read that Christ reaches out most to those with pure hearts. A judge condemns men to death yet acknowledges Christ as his Savior......yet his profession is somewhat juxtaposed to his supposed 'faith' and he performs in his role regardless......is he worthy of salvation?

We can cite numerous examples where a man with a sinful heart acknowledges Christ and if we merely associate salvation as having some form of lexical definition, then many wanton sinners, evil people, are going to be saved. I cannot believe that it is so, yet perhaps the question becomes, what constitutes a true Christian. There are many people in this world who possess the power of persuasion and can convince you of being nearly angelic, yet their hearts are cold and black......we, unlike Christ, cannot see within these people at face value, ultimately, only he will be able to stand in judgement of them......yet if he says the right things and displays the right behavior in public, perhaps contra to his true intentions, then we accept him as a Christian. My feelings toward certain religious organizations pivots off of this very issue - the body of Christ can be comprised of evil people with ill intentions yet walk amongst those in the glitz of the ivory chapel. In the same token, the church can also turn its back on a person who has a pure heart or one who is far more worthy of Christ than some of the wolves in sheeps clothing that I have met.

Tying this all together, my point is, acknowledging God and living as Christ wanted would seem more important to me than acting out a doctrine yet having a sinful heart.

 

[Chip Bronson]

Tying this all together, my point is, acknowledging God and living as Christ wanted would seem more important to me than acting out a doctrine yet having a sinful heart.

always a pleasure reading your posts hogg and i wish you had the time to post more often. i haven't read the bible in about 25 years. when i was young, i didn't like being forced into the whole religion thing, especially as i saw the extent of the hypocrisy around me and, as such, i took it to the extreme. i felt that things like going to church and reading the bible would hinder my comprehension of the true meaning of god so i took great pains to avoid these things, much to my parents dismay. but even though the words of christ have been absent from my eyes, the message is still within me. again, i don't know how it got there, i'm still working on this, so i can only speculate. but it is there for sure. it's what makes me act the way i do and believe as i believe.

and what reaffirms my belief that god is within each of us, and that we are the only ones that can truly expose him to ourselves, is the fact that i am who i am as a result of eschewing organized religion and the like.

 

[armsports]

I would suggest a couple of things here. First, there is a difference between not knowing about Jesus and openly rejecting him. Secondly, I believe if you accept that Jesus is God's Son, that he died on the Cross for our sins, and accept Him as our Savior than you will strive to live a Christian life and be a "good" person. This is because this is the foundation (for Christians anyway) ofv developing a personal relationship with God such that He can work in you. If you just pay lip service to this than you are more likely to be hippocritical in your actions.

 

[armsports]

Whoopsie! Make that "hypocritical". I have nothing against large, African river mammals.

 

[Bob Smith]

But who is without sin? No one, not even the secluded woodsman.

There are a lot of "good" people, such as Chip helping out his neighbor and the old folks and so on. But repeatedly throughout the Bible it says that works (being good) will not get you to Heaven. This is one reason why I think the Catholics are wrong. They believe that good works are, or part of, the cause of salvation. The Bible says the exact opposite. Good works arent the cause, they are the effect of salvation, as a means of thanking God for his blessing.

Now, whether a person is a "true" Christian or not is not really up to us to decide. Only God truly knows what is in someones heart. If a person is faking it, then they are probably screwed when their physical life is over. This isnt too much of an issue since we as humans dont determine who is true or not.

Now, is we accept that Jesus is the Savior and true believers in him go to Heaven, then what happens to the few people worldwide that have never heard the story of Jesus? I have no idea and I dont think anyone can really answer that. But, (ill try to find the reference), the Bible says that Jesus wont return till after everyone has heard the Good News. That gives everyone a chance to hear the story, so then they have no excuse when the time comes. Now, if by chance there are some far off people that have never heard about Jesus, do they go to Heaven or suffer in Hell? No idea. Maybe there is some loophole for those people that is not specifically detailed in the Bible.

 

[CyniQ]

I've been reading the boards here at Meso for a couple of weeks now. Kinda a voyuer I guess. I am extremely impressed with alot of you guys. This is my first ever post on any board so please bare with me. I agree with a great deal of Hogg's thoughts and sentiments. I would like to a point. Prior to WWII, Hitler's propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, took control of Germany's film industry. Why? He realized that movies were and are a powerful medium by which to influence peoples beliefs, emotions, and actions. Goebbels, with astounding effectiveness, was able to influence normal, rational people to blindly follow the Nazi regime.

What Jesus went through during the course of his sacrifice is important to a point. The purpose of that sacrifice is vastly more important. If you truly want to understand such things, go straight to the source (bible). Don't allow your minds to be clouded by someone else's interpretation of the events. As another member frequently says "That's just my .02".

 

[CyniQ]

Bob. I know you don't know me. Please don't take this as a flame. Just want to point out that Jesus said (Matt. 7:21?) Not everyone saying Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But he that is doing the will of my Father.

Not a direct quote.

 

[Bob Smith]

Matt 7:21
"Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is what we were just talking about, fake Christians.


Matt 7:21 cont..
The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven.

Which can be answered with
John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.


The rest of Matt 7:22-23
On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.'


Eph 2:8-10
God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

 

[CyniQ]

Matt 7:21
"Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as 'Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

This is what we were just talking about, fake Christians.


Matt 7:21 cont..
The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven.

Which can be answered with
John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.


The rest of Matt 7:22-23
On judgment day many will tell me, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Go away; the things you did were unauthorized.'


Eph 2:8-10
God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I agree. Without the ransom sacrifice of Christ, no man regardless of his beliefs or works, could hope to attain everlasting life or gain entry to heaven or whatever his particular hope may be.

However, when we pray the Lord's Prayer we pray that God's will be done. And 1 Peter 2:21 says (depending on your translation) that Christ was a model for us, to follow his steps closely. This certainly implies that some action may be required on our parts.

 

[Bob Smith]

Here is a commentary about works, which includes some references...

WORKS
The old objection against the doctrine of salvation by grace, that it does away with the necessity of good works, and lowers the sense of their importance (Rom 6), although it has been answered a thousand times, is still alleged by many. They say if men are not saved by works, then works are not necessary. If the most moral of men are saved in the same way as the very chief of sinners, then good works are of no moment. And more than this, if the grace of God is most clearly displayed in the salvation of the vilest of men, then the worse men are the better.

The objection has no validity. The gospel of salvation by grace shows that good works are necessary. It is true, unchangeably true, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. "Neither adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards" shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Works are "good" only when, (1) they spring from the principle of love to God. The moral character of an act is determined by the moral principle that prompts it. Faith and love in the heart are the essential elements of all true obedience. Hence good works only spring from a believing heart, can only be wrought by one reconciled to God (Eph 2:10; James 2:18:22). (2.) Good works have the glory of God as their object; and (3) they have the revealed will of God as their only rule (Deut 12:32; Rev 22:18,19).

Good works are an expression of gratitude in the believer's heart (John 14:15,23; Gal 5:6). They are the fruits of the Spirit (Titus 2:10-12), and thus spring from grace, which they illustrate and strengthen in the heart.

Good works of the most sincere believers are all imperfect, yet like their persons they are accepted through the mediation of Jesus Christ (Col 3:17), and so are rewarded; they have no merit intrinsically, but are rewarded wholly of grace.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary)

 

[Bob Smith]

Here is a list of passages that show the inadequecy of works in regards to salvation

Ps 49:7-8
Ps 127:1-2
Eccl 1:14
Isa 43:26
Isa 57:12
Isa 64:6
Ezek 7:19
Ezek 33:12-19
Dan 9:18
Matt 5:20
Luke 17:7-10
Luke 18:9-14
Acts 13:39
Rom 3:20-31
Rom 4:1-22
Rom 8:3
Rom 9:16
Rom 9:31-32
Rom 11:6
1 Cor 13:1-3
Gal 2:16
Gal 2:19
Gal 2:21
Gal 3
Gal 4:9-11
Gal 5:2
Gal 5:4
Gal 5:6
Gal 5:18
Gal 6:15
Eph 2:8-9
Phil 3:3-9
Col 2:20-23
2 Tim 1:9
Titus 3:4-5
Heb 4:3-10
Heb 6:1-2
Heb 9:1-14
James 2:10-11

 

[garyzilla]

Here is a commentary about works, which includes some references...

WORKS
The old objection against the doctrine of salvation by grace, that it does away with the necessity of good works, and lowers the sense of their importance (Rom 6), although it has been answered a thousand times, is still alleged by many. They say if men are not saved by works, then works are not necessary. If the most moral of men are saved in the same way as the very chief of sinners, then good works are of no moment. And more than this, if the grace of God is most clearly displayed in the salvation of the vilest of men, then the worse men are the better.

The objection has no validity. The gospel of salvation by grace shows that good works are necessary. It is true, unchangeably true, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. "Neither adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards" shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Works are "good" only when, (1) they spring from the principle of love to God. The moral character of an act is determined by the moral principle that prompts it. Faith and love in the heart are the essential elements of all true obedience. Hence good works only spring from a believing heart, can only be wrought by one reconciled to God (Eph 2:10; James 2:18:22). (2.) Good works have the glory of God as their object; and (3) they have the revealed will of God as their only rule (Deut 12:32; Rev 22:18,19).

Good works are an expression of gratitude in the believer's heart (John 14:15,23; Gal 5:6). They are the fruits of the Spirit (Titus 2:10-12), and thus spring from grace, which they illustrate and strengthen in the heart.

Good works of the most sincere believers are all imperfect, yet like their persons they are accepted through the mediation of Jesus Christ (Col 3:17), and so are rewarded; they have no merit intrinsically, but are rewarded wholly of grace.
(from Easton's Bible Dictionary)

I leave for a couple of hours and look what I wake up to. By the way Bob, I thought I was the Pastor and the one to give all the Theology anwsers! LOL!

 

[Bob Smith]

lol, It truly is amazing how beneficial a quality Bible software program is!

 

[CyniQ]

Here is a list of passages that show the inadequecy of works in regards to salvation

Ps 49:7-8
Ps 127:1-2
Eccl 1:14
Isa 43:26
Isa 57:12
Isa 64:6
Ezek 7:19
Ezek 33:12-19
Dan 9:18
Matt 5:20
Luke 17:7-10
Luke 18:9-14
Acts 13:39
Rom 3:20-31
Rom 4:1-22
Rom 8:3
Rom 9:16
Rom 9:31-32
Rom 11:6
1 Cor 13:1-3
Gal 2:16
Gal 2:19
Gal 2:21
Gal 3
Gal 4:9-11
Gal 5:2
Gal 5:4
Gal 5:6
Gal 5:18
Gal 6:15
Eph 2:8-9
Phil 3:3-9
Col 2:20-23
2 Tim 1:9
Titus 3:4-5
Heb 4:3-10
Heb 6:1-2
Heb 9:1-14
James 2:10-11

This is beginning to feel like an arguement and it is definately not my intention to wear out my welcome before I've even been welcomed.

I feel that the "salvation by grace" vs. "salvation by works" arguement (not between you and I but the arguement in general) is unnecessary. I do not mean to present myself as an advocate of the "salvation by works" side of the equation. As I stated above, I realize that belief in a purely works based salvation is unfounded in scripture. I do not believe that the two are mutually exclusive but rather they go hand in hand. I believe you made this point as well. I simply do not subscribe to the believe in your heart and confess with your lips philosophy. James said be doers of the word and not hearers only. He gives the example of telling your brother "Go in peace, keep warm and well fed" (Subject to translation) but not giving your brother the means to do so. Your saying is of no benefit. "Thus too, faith," James says "if it does not have works is dead in itself."

 

[CyniQ]

lol, It truly is amazing how beneficial a quality Bible software program is!

That was a very nice list of scriptures. It'll take me weeks to research all of those. LOL