Timing of HCG blast and SERM PCT after short ester clears

[lanier1974]

I've been 8 weeks now on 600mg test cyp. I'm switching to 600mg test prop for the last 4 weeks so the cyp clears out in that time, and the short ester prop will clear out quickly after last pin.

This seems to create a conundrum.

Considering what I understand concerning the Dr. Scally approach to PCT:

-HCG blast is recommended to start after last pin and go for @3weeks @2000iu EOD to jumpstart the testes

-HCG is suppressive so SERM should be started when HCG blast is finished to be effective

-SERM are recommended to be started once exogenous test levels hit bottom and clear out

-test Prop clears in a few days to a week, 2 weeks before the 3 week HCG blast has finished, leaving 2 weeks of super low test levels with no SERM.

Can anyone clarify this problem?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

-HCG blast is recommended to start after last pin and go for @3weeks @2000iu EOD to jumpstart the testes

As I have said repeatedly, I made NO such claim for when to begin hCG. In fact, I have said over and over and over and ..., PCT must account for the AAS used (type, dose, & duration). Another point I have said, hCG is Q3-4D. Another ...

Labs, Labs, Labs .... Where are the labs?

 

[lanier1974]

Doc, I am basing the HCG EOD from this:

PCT - PurePeptide.com

...where you are named the key doctor in the program. Searching on the net over many forums for "Scally PCT" will get you that, or a discussion of that.

That publication says 2000iu EOD. Countless posts I've read would lead me to believe many, many others think that's what you recommend too, as that's where I got the idea.

If you don't recommend that, by all means, please set it straight. I defer to you of course. That's why I'm asking. Your word is the end all as far as I'm concerned.

If you say E3-4D, then i'll take that to the bank.

I also understand PCT must account for when the ester clears the system. That's why I'm asking about when to begin and end the HCG blast and start SERM, considering the short time prop ester takes to clear out.

I've read countless hours. Opinions vary WILDLY, as do experiences, it seems. So I'm looking to set the record straight.

Now, stupidly or not, I've chosen to try AAS after nearly 20 years of natural training because I'm living in a country where I can order them legally, yet that country is archaic when it comes to modern medicine (among other things). I do not have access to labs the way Americans do. It's not done here. You don't walk in and ask for such things. It's not offered. If you make a stink to request it, red flags go up for visa holders like myself, because in this "don't ask don't tell" society, AAS are legal to order and needles and injecting yourself is completely illegal. Japanese jail is not a thing to be trifled with. Can we say no due process and unfettered police abuse?

I get the value of labs. Am I foolish for trying this without labs? Perhaps. I'm asking for whatever advice and help can be offered to do the best I can without them.

 

[lanier1974]

Doc, your quote from another thread:

"I consider PCT to begin immediately after stopping AAS. This would mean the day of the last AAS whether injection or oral"

So, do you mean begin HCG immediately after stopping AAS?

"To better understand PCT, disregard the hCG during AAS administration. At the end of AAS administration (actually within days), the T level will be about 6,000 ng/dL. It is better to use the higher estimate for obvious reasons. At a half-life of 7-10 days, the serum T level will take approximately 4 half-lives to get to ~375. At this point, the HPTA will attempt to restart. It might be sooner/later, but this is a very good and reasonable T level. This is between 28-40 days! "

This discussion involved a cycle with test ethanate. Wouldn't just 600mg/wk of test prop clear out MUCH faster? So how would this affect HCG and HPTA restart timing?

"If you run SERMs before this time, they will in all likelihood not be optimally effective."

Given "this time" is sooner with test prop, would one begin SERM sooner as well, and would this mean a shorter HCG blast too, or an overlap?

" It is also during this time that the testes will not be stimulated since the gonadotropins are suppressed. This is the best time to use hCG - during the expected decline of exogenous T (or other AAS).

So, again, you are saying the best time to use HCG is from last injection through the decline of exogenous test? Given prop will decline and clear relatively quickly, does this mean one should blast HCG for a shorter time?

Hence my aforementioned questions: when to begin and end HCG blast given the short clearance timeframe for test prop, and when to being SERM in that case?

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Doc, your quote from another thread:

"I consider PCT to begin immediately after stopping AAS. This would mean the day of the last AAS whether injection or oral"

I admit I did not read your posts in detail. I stopped at this quote. PCT is a time frame, NOT the point to begin injections, which was made very clear for the point about ester half-life.

I am not going to answer your questions as they have been answered ad infinitum before. I am not here to school you nor anyone else. The best way to do a successful HPTA restoration is through labs. That is the "magic." Otherwise, the result is hypogonadism 99/100.

 

[Stretch]

I admit I did not read your posts in detail. I stopped at this quote. PCT is a time frame, NOT the point to begin injections, which was made very clear for the point about ester half-life.

I am not going to answer your questions as they have been answered ad infinitum before. I am not here to school you nor anyone else. The best way to do a successful HPTA restoration is through labs. That is the "magic." Otherwise, the result is hypogonadism 99/100.

Things have changed here. SMH.

I always wondered why you were willing to help so much Dr.

But, I see now I was wrong when I said you were not purposely nebulous for the means of wanting to be compensated for your time.

I AM NOT saying this is a crime by any stretch of the imagination!! As I stated in another post. If you're good at something never do it for free. But I assured Lanier this was not your intention, and publicly lambasted him for his critique. Now I am publicly admitting I was wrong for doing so.

If you werent going to advise him why interject on the thread?

Not that my respect matters to you, but you still have the utmost of it. A forum by definition is a platform for the exchange of ideas. Lanier is NOT some fat noob trying to get ripped without working hard. He is an intellectual searching for answers through the forest of bro science. If I could help him I would, but this is an extremely deep topic, and I guess I am the 1% you were referring to because I am not hypogonadic and I've never had bloodwork. And I run a PCT based off the advice gleaned from your posts.




Not my business I suppose, I just remember things being different in years past.

 

[Pericles]

Back to the OT: You do not need 4 weeks of T prop to clear the T E. At 600 mgs of prop, you will have plenty of knots in your ass by 2 weeks, and the T E should be pretty much gone by then. Deca and EQ are more problematic.

I will run HCG, 2KIU's e2d starting 2 days after last shot of prop for 10-16 days.

I start Serms one day before last shot of HCG (keep in mind that HCG stimulates Leydigs/balls, but shuts down Pit/Hypo).

Run Nolva/Clomid at 40 and 150 respectively for 8-10 days, then 30/100 for 10 days, then 20/50 for 10 days. Stay on 10 Nolva for a while after that.

 

[Stretch]

Back to the OT: You do not need 4 weeks of T prop to clear the T E. At 600 mgs of prop, you will have plenty of knots in your ass by 2 weeks, and the T E should be pretty much gone by then. Deca and EQ are more problematic.

I will run HCG, 2KIU's e2d starting 2 days after last shot of prop for 10-16 days.

I start Serms one day before last shot of HCG (keep in mind that HCG stimulates Leydigs/balls, but shuts down Pit/Hypo).

Run Nolva/Clomid at 40 and 150 respectively for 8-10 days, then 30/100 for 10 days, then 20/50 for 10 days. Stay on 10 Nolva for a while after that.

Wow. Were we overthinking things or what Lanier? Too easy.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Wow. Were we overthinking things or what Lanier? Too easy.

FAIL. TC/TE 600 MG/WEEK will NOT clear in 2 weeks! More like NOT thinking. LOL [hCG can be done while TC/TE are "clearing." The key has always been to use hCG until the HPTA would theoretically activate from the T level. At that point, typically after checking T, begin SERM.] ]

 

[Stretch]

FAIL. TC/TE 600 MG/WEEK will NOT clear in 2 weeks! More like NOT thinking. LOL

I agree with the 2 week part of your post. But the formula laid out still works.

2 weeks of prop + 10-16 days of hCG as pericles said = 4 half lives of the TE/TC before application of SERMs. I can provide quotes from you if desired...because I AM thinking.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I agree with the 2 week part of your post. But the formula laid out still works.

2 weeks of prop + 10-16 days of hCG as pericles said = 4 half lives of the TE/TC before application of SERMs. I can provide quotes from you if desired...because I AM thinking.

You have to take into account the TP, if used. Otherwise, the 4 weeks from the TC/TE is fine without the TP. [Also, hCG is Q3-4D.] And, why bother with the TP at all. What will it add?

 

[Pericles]

FAIL. TC/TE 600 MG/WEEK will NOT clear in 2 weeks! More like NOT thinking. LOL [hCG can be done while TC/TE are "clearing." The key has always been to use hCG until the HPTA would theoretically activate from the T level. At that point, typically after checking T, begin SERM.] ]

Yes, but if one runs prop for 2 weeks then HCG for 2 weeks (IE 4 weeks total) they should be fine.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Yes, but if one runs prop for 2 weeks then HCG for 2 weeks (IE 4 weeks total) they should be fine.

Go For It. In my experience, the likelihood is failure. In all of these calculations, one has used the best (minimum) half-life - 7 days. What I found almost universally with LABS, was the half-life was closer to 10-14 days! I use 10 days since the SERM is used for an extended period.

 

[Pericles]

Also, I have been claiming that Doc S advocated 2kIUs of HCG e2d. I stand corrected. Lipschultz advocates 3k e2d, but this is for trt patients who go back to trt doses after 4 weeks of HCG.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Also, I have been claiming that Doc S advocated 2kIUs of HCG e2d. I stand corrected. Lipschultz advocates 3k e2d, but this is for trt patients who go back to trt doses after 4 weeks of HCG.

hCG is optimal at 2,000 IU Q3-4D. This is far better and an update from my original publication of 2,500 IU QOD.

Question: What do you believe the range for TT would be after 10 Weeks TC/TE 600 MG/WEEK if you measured 1 WEEK after the last injection?

Question: Is it better to go a bit longer or shorter on the hCG? [After all, it is for HPTA restoration]

 

[lanier1974]

Wow. This is more like it!

Firstly, Dr, it was my understanding that the purpose of such forum participation as this was indeed to school each other. You sir are surely the master here. There are no stupid questions; only the un-asked. We look up to you. There is a responsibility in that.

Stretch, that honest assessment and back-up, and willingness to stand up, is highly I appreciated.

This is my first cycle. I wouldn't call it a heavy one. I'm other wise healthy and well trained, naturally, for 20 years prior. Shall I assume that without labs and precise timing/tuning, ill be hypogonadic after PCT? Are 99% of the healthy, non-HRT/TRT/lifers thus hypogonadic after one cycle? It's a serious question. Thus my desire for "schooling".

Dr. Scally, you still have my respect. This is why I'd love your clarification. I teach young minds to grow and think for a living. I answer their redundant yet honest questions over and over until they learn; nothing is more rewarding or pure. I'm paid little. I live in $Tokyo. I'm broke. What can I say.

Pericles, thank you immensely for trying to honestly and clearly answer my question (which you've no doubt answered many times). Noted.

Just to be safe and give the TC more time to clear, I'm doing TP for 4 wk. I was already pinning TC 200mg 3x wk T/R/S and spreading it around my gluten and quads, so I'm ready for the frequency.

Dr. Scally, I realize best case scenarios for ester clearing may be short. That's why I'm allowing 4wks for the TC to clear out. I realize that there will be a complex axis of clearance times with the overlap of clearing TC and administered TP. At 8 wk 600mg TC and 4 wk 600mg TP, what would you guesstimate the time to clearance from last shot may be? PLEASE.

Dr, "Why bother with the TP at all": to shorten the time it takes for the esters to clear after last shot by giving TC 4 wk to do so and ending with a short ester which clears quickly, so I CAN GET ON WITH PCT sooner. If my logic is flawed, please correct me.

Dr, since " HCG is optimal 2000iu Q3-4D...can be done while Exo-T is clearing...... until HPTA theoretically activates", your words, would you be so kind as to estimate based on your vast clinical experience about how long that period may be on the case? The model may serve to instruct others similarly, which is the purpose of the forum indeed.

Dr, if you deem we are NOT thinking, I humbly and sincerely request you direct our thinking in the appropriate direction. If the "likelihood is failure" regarding my plan, I humbly request to be set straight.

 

[Pericles]

hCG is optimal at 2,000 IU Q3-4D. This is far better and an update from my original publication of 2,500 IU QOD.

Question: What do you believe the range for TT would be after 10 Weeks TC/TE 600 MG/WEEK if you measured 1 WEEK after the last injection?

Question: Is it better to go a bit longer or shorter on the hCG? [After all, it is for HPTA restoration]

Personally, after my competitive BB ended, I never did more than 300 mgs of test a week. I also did smaller doses of HCG (still working off old Dan Duchain protocols, and all this was more than 8 years ago).

W/ a taper, I would be injecting less than 120 mg's of test e4days. 5 days after last 120 mg T E injection, I would start HCG, but only 1kIUs e2d. As such, my HCG would last 20 days and result in starting Clomid/Nolva 24 days after last 120 mg shot of T E. I did no labs, as the medical community had no interest back then.

However, the above protocol always worked well for me. I usually would go 2 months before another cycle. I had no erectile problems. I guess I was just suppressed and not aware of the fact

 

[lanier1974]

So Pericles, what do you recon?

Wk8 finish TC
Wk9-12 do TP
Wk13-15 do HCG 2000iu E3D as doc says
Mid wk15-21SERM (overlap SERM and HCG a few days to be seamless).

Plan? Logical?

 

[lanier1974]

I guess my most pressing question is: is there any harm in running HCG blast a little longer, ie past the point at which HPTA tries to restart, to be safe, rather than too short and discontinue before that ester clears/HPTA restart? Which direction for margin or error is safest?

 

[Pericles]

You have about 40 days from last shot of T C, so you should be gtg for Serms. I would start them 1 day before finishing HCG.

Also, you will need an AI when using HCG as it produces estrogen like crazy.