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[Pericles]

Well, my, my... look what we have here. PC, the brilliant "trained research scientist" (LMFAO!!!), having lost every debate on evidence that he is unable to comprehend, is giving up any pretence that his comments are based on science and is now openly advocating bro lore. My, how the mighty have fallen.

It's not surprising, though. Through bro science, one can make any claim they want without proof and THAT is PC's forte.

What makes this board "very, very, valuable" is not the ability to vet sources, although that is certainly an important part of Meso, but the real value is when people like our resident "trained research scientist," make claims without so much as a shread of supporting evidence, they're held accountable. And because they're held accountable, Meso members can feel assured that the information available here isn't BS. Or, what PC calls Bro Science.

CBS

This is coming from the brain trust that thinks anavar dosing is based upon what HIV positive men take, or that Nolva usage is predicated upon what women w/ breast cancer use.

Scientific studies can sometimes give us a push in the right direction: We know that HCG may stimulate the Leydig cells, that var is useful for protein synthases, and that in general that Nolva will reduce gyno/breast cancer.

However beyond that, these mostly obscure works tell us very, very little about actual usage/dosing/frequency/presentation, etc.

Stretch: Do your really believe that this board is a leader in what you claim as having "taught me the vast majority of what I know about PEDs, TRT and everything else pertaining to this lifestyle.?" Surely you cannot be that out of touch w/ reality?

We were running pct's 20 years ago (didn't call it pct, however). We used HCG and Serms. The only thing we have learned in these 20 years is that half lifes on long esters (like test c) take 21 days to clear. We used 14 days.

 

[Dr JIM]

We were running pct's 20 years ago (didn't call it pct, however). We used HCG and Serms. The only thing we have learned in these 20 years is that half lifes on long esters (like test c) take 21 days to clear. We used 14 days.

PC I don't know who the "WE" is you continually refer to as having such vast fund of knowledge but it most certainly NOT YOU!

Among the many virtues Stretch possesses is honesty with himself and others, something your sorely lacking (however that overtly dysfunctional trait is most likely the consequence of your delusional psychiatric disorder). Moreover Stretch is apt to give credit where credit is do and in doing so is also willing (reluctantly as it should be with someone of his knowledge base) to admit he was mistake on occasion. (Indeed that's one reason he has always earned my respect)

However these attributes simply do NOT compute in the PC world because doing so would fracture your selfish fragile little world. All someone has to do to confirm what I'm referencing is review some of your old posts, some as early as one year ago and discover how LITTLE PC really knew THEN
(yet you refer to 20 years of experience as a BRO, LMAO)

However unfortunately for you PC, said individual will also realize what limited progress you have made is the result of others attempting to teach the impossible, simply because your foolish fixation (or laziness) on "broism" forbids your acceptance of evidence based literature.

Incidentally. since your such a PRO physically and intellectually why in the heck are you wasting your time, and ours, sticking around Meso? No doubt you were welcomed with opened arms at the Iron Den, TID, Steroid Insight etc, yes, NOT.

No doubt you became the laughing stock of those boards also because your HEAD is much larger than your biceps or brain.

PC really will you ever cease the BULLSHIT, wishful thinking on my behalf, no doubt.

[)]

 

[DieYoungStrong]

SI is a legit looking board. I've been hanging around there a bit the past few days. I'm on the Iron Den too, but mostly just lurk there. I do 99% of my posting here.

FWIW I started getting the tingly nipple on my current cycle, and started feeling a small build-up of tissue behind it, but it wasn't a full lump yet. It was just starting to get sensitive. Well I hopped on 20mg Nolva QD with 12.5 mg Stane QD and a week later, it's all gone. The "gyno" issue was gone in 2 days, but I'm going to keep running the Nolva for another week. Maybe the lower dose worked because I caught it very early, IDK. Just my personal experience, and I've never dealt with any gyno issues in the past. Getting old sucks harder then Stretch's mom...

 

[mugzy]

:drama:

 

[Stretch]

:drama:

Constantly.

Shit is getting SOO old. Its fucking pathetic and discredits the entire board.

 

[JackC4]

I don't even read the post's anymore, once I see a back and forth pissing contest.

 

[Stretch]

Stretch: Do your really believe that this board is a leader in what you claim as having "taught me the vast majority of what I know about PEDs, TRT and everything else pertaining to this lifestyle.?" Surely you cannot be that out of touch w/ reality?

Leave then.

Why the fuck are you here?

 

[Pericles]

Constantly.

Shit is getting SOO old. Its fucking pathetic and discredits the entire board.

Sorry bro, but I call em like I see em. I know for a fact what IFBB pros do, and top armatures do, and this board is 100% clueless about reality. Go over to the YOUTube post from the Contra Costa winner to see reality.

I have said this repeatedly, but the academic studies posted here are like comparing apples to oranges. They do nothing to increase the depth of understanding of what strength/ bb's actually do. At best they reinforce what we already knew 20 years ago.

When I says "we bodybuilders" I am referring to Chris, Flex, and the S. Cal pros. I can also tell you what the Germans do, insane amounts (they consider US pros to be pussies) and what Dorian did. I am also referring to Dan (Duchain). In Dans' words "we ran the tests, we were the lab rats." Protocols for using Clomid, HCG, SERMS and other PED's to mitigate the sides of steroids were, for the most part developed back then. As I stated, above we have fine tuned some of the intellectual property from back then. We did not have access to AI's, but we used everything else.

Having said that, what, exactly have we added to the above knowledge? Some fine tuning. We thought that the long ester clearing period of say test e/c was 2 weeks. We know now it is 3 weeks. We ran HCG in the middle of the cycle, and then the end, as opposed to running smaller amounts the whole cycle.

All these developments were primarily from bro science and were ferreted out in the 1980's. In regards to this board, the raison d'etre is to look at a study that is, for the most part, just a re-inforcement of knowledge that is close to 30 years old.

Jim and CBS act like they have "discovered" that Nolva will prevent gyno. That fact was discovered 25-30 years ago. The really insane part, is that Jim's treatment protocol is the same as the one for women. If 20 mgs works for women, it must also work for men twice their size and using tons of gear that produce aromatization. 20 mgs might work for some, but the majority I have seen needed more. The dosage usually must be higher, then titrated down once symptoms go into remission. All the guys I work with, if going in we know they are predisposed to gyno, will already be running Nolva at 20 mgs to begin with.

I have yet seen nothing substantioal, that moves our knowledge forward come from the dynamic duo....I guess it is trio, now that Stretch has joined.

Since they are unable to address the fundamental issues, they go into personal attack mode. They say I do not have a PhD, even though I posted up several shots of the degree, the same w/ my bb and martial arts history. That is fine w/ me. I have asked them many times fo a picture of their bodybuilding achievements but they refuse. At first it pissed me off until I realized that I must be getting free rent for a billboard in their mind. Now I just feel sorry for them.

Thus, I am not going to waste any more time on them. I am going to work, and then the gym. However, I would like to ask one thing: Who are the strength and/or bodybuilding champions from this board? Why are there so few here, and so many over at TID? The reason is that every champion would be ridiculed for their heavily "Bro Science" based success.

 

[Stretch]

Sorry bro, but I call em like I see em. I know for a fact what IFBB pros do, and top armatures do, and this board is 100% clueless about reality. Go over to the YOUTube post from the Contra Costa winner to see reality.

I have said this repeatedly, but the academic studies posted here are like comparing apples to oranges. They do nothing to increase the depth of understanding of what strength/ bb's actually do. At best they reinforce what we already knew 20 years ago.

When I says "we bodybuilders" I am referring to Chris, Flex, and the S. Cal pros. I can also tell you what the Germans do, insane amounts (they consider US pros to be pussies) and what Dorian did. I am also referring to Dan (Duchain). In Dans' words "we ran the tests, we were the lab rats." Protocols for using Clomid, HCG, SERMS and other PED's to mitigate the sides of steroids were, for the most part developed back then. As I stated, above we have fine tuned some of the intellectual property from back then. We did not have access to AI's, but we used everything else.

Having said that, what, exactly have we added to the above knowledge? Some fine tuning. We thought that the long ester clearing period of say test e/c was 2 weeks. We know now it is 3 weeks. We ran HCG in the middle of the cycle, and then the end, as opposed to running smaller amounts the whole cycle.

All these developments were primarily from bro science and were ferreted out in the 1980's. In regards to this board, the raison d'etre is to look at a study that is, for the most part, just a re-inforcement of knowledge that is close to 30 years old.

Jim and CBS act like they have "discovered" that Nolva will prevent gyno. That fact was discovered 25-30 years ago. The really insane part, is that Jim's treatment protocol is the same as the one for women. If 20 mgs works for women, it must also work for men twice their size and using tons of gear that produce aromatization. 20 mgs might work for some, but the majority I have seen needed more. The dosage usually must be higher, then titrated down once symptoms go into remission. All the guys I work with, if going in we know they are predisposed to gyno, will already be running Nolva at 20 mgs to begin with.

I have yet seen nothing substantioal, that moves our knowledge forward come from the dynamic duo....I guess it is trio, now that Stretch has joined.

Since they are unable to address the fundamental issues, they go into personal attack mode. They say I do not have a PhD, even though I posted up several shots of the degree, the same w/ my bb and martial arts history. That is fine w/ me. I have asked them many times fo a picture of their bodybuilding achievements but they refuse. At first it pissed me off until I realized that I must be getting free rent for a billboard in their mind. Now I just feel sorry for them.

Thus, I am not going to waste any more time on them. I am going to work, and then the gym. However, I would like to ask one thing: Who are the strength and/or bodybuilding champions from this board? Why are there so few here, and so many over at TID? The reason is that every champion would be ridiculed for their heavily "Bro Science" based success.

:dnftt:

BTW...those "Vets" you keep referring to left, in large part, due to the arrogant, impotent, pissing contests like the many you have engaged in. The rest left because of the open source talk, that you speak of as Meso's one redeeming quality. So stop acting like you are friends with the VETS. You are clearly out of touch with how they think. The owner of TID has already posted up his thoughts on your bullshit, pre-madonna cock measuring.

My patience is gone for this shit.

 

[Pericles]

:dnftt:

Why do you keep bumping the thread to the top? Read my last 2 posts. There is a solid argument there. Do your really need to resort to profanity in regards to me?

Furthermore, since I do not agree w/ the the substance of their arguments I should leave? Following your logic, maybe you should just not read me posts. If you DID read my posts, you would see that my questions are legitimate.

Lets stop the personal attacks and look at the substance. Is that possible?

We can start another thread. Lets start by looking at the Nolva lesson? It seems that Jims' treatment of men is an exact copy of treatment for women? Why is that the protocol? Is there a good controlled study of large BB'ers (twice the size of women) using lots of gear w/ lots of gyno being saved by 20 mgs of Nolva? I would love to see that.

W/ very little theoretical connection, why is treatment the same for both cohorts?

 

[Stretch]

Why do you keep bumping the thread to the top? Read my last 2 posts. There is a solid argument there. Do your really need to resort to profanity in regards to me?

Furthermore, since I do not agree w/ the the substance of their arguments I should leave? Following your logic, maybe you should just not read me posts. If you DID read my posts, you would see that my questions are legitimate.

Lets stop the personal attacks and look at the substance. Is that possible?

We can start another thread. Lets start by looking at the Nolva lesson? It seems that Jims' treatment of men is an exact copy of treatment for women? Why is that the protocol? Is there a good controlled study of large BB'ers (twice the size of women) using lots of gear w/ lots of gyno being saved by 20 mgs of Nolva? I would love to see that.

W/ very little theoretical connection, why is treatment the same for both cohorts?

Bumping the thread to the top? I replied 9 minutes after you.

I said you should leave because of your statements regarding the usefulness if this board. Yet...here you are..day by day.


I have no desire to engage you further in this regard.(Nolva dose) I realize that my goal of dissolving the argument was not served well by the language I used. I was angry, and allowed my self to respond in a tone which was dominated by emotion.

That being said, my profanity was always directed at your actions and not your persona. Meso is the leader for scientific application of any type of PED IMO.

You attempted to reduce it to a source board, which inflamed me. I owe the board an apology for perpetuating this silly argument.

I agree with you on many of the "bro science " arguments you engage in. I will take repeatable science over anecdotal reports any day.

But I don't believe just because science can not identity the mechanism by which certain physiological changes occur, precludes the possibility of said changes occurring.

The three of you allowing yourselves to sink into personal attacks which are designed to maim the reputation of other members who oppose your ideas, and therefore add credibility to your own argument, damages both your own credibility, and the credibility of this board.

It is childish.
Played out
Boring
Unprofitable banter

And it has the ability to destroy this board. Can't you three just stop dragging each other into these arguments? At the very least can we speak to each other with the same language, and respect that we would use in real life?

I highly doubt any of the three of you would speak to each other the way you type AT each other.

Disclaimer--all the things I accuse you guys of, I have been guilty of myself previously, and probably will make the same mistakes again before I die. And i hope someone pulls me aside and tells me about it if I do.

 

[Kamala]

Too much petty stuff happening in this thread, we look like a bunch of 13 year old girls.

This is a good forum, I've been around for a few years now and probably at least looked at most out there.....And there's a lot out there....... I already said this board has its strengths, its openness probably being #1......... As this board grows, it has and it will, more veteran members with more experience will show up and share that knowledge.....its all exponential.
Just because some other board has more veteran members doesn't mean this one is sinking and won't catch up, I have faith that it will. Even in the last few months there's a lot of well respected guys dropping in here, in a few more months who knows?

 

[Pericles]

Strech, you had me at " I realize that my goal of dissolving the argument was not served well by the language I used. I was angry, and allowed my self to respond in a tone which was dominated by emotion."

In fact, your post is spot on. We should be trying to help each other out. I am more than happy to stretch out my hand w/ an olive branch to CBS and Jim, 100% forgive and forget (this actually is the second time I have tried) every thing. Empirical evidence is always worth studying. However, as I said, we need to comprehend the fact that there is a very limited application of a study that looked at one variables effect on one cohort.

I am sorry that you don't like the Nolva example, but it illustrates my point. It tells us that there is a good probability that what helps women w/ breast cancer will also be useful for men w/ steroid induced gyno.

However, that is not news, we knew that fact nearly 30 years ago. The conclusion falls into the "No shit Sherlock" bin. And also, dosages are absolutely not the same. 20 mgs will barely put a dent into your growing man boobs.

I have no problem w/ a good, vigorous theoretical discussion. The problem is that they turn into nasty personal attacks. I have been guilty, but am making an effort not to do so. I strongly recommend that everyone do the same. Actually, you have already done so, so we are good in my book.

 

[Superman4hire]

Vets (By this I mean veteran BBs NOT guys that simply post a lot until Meso status reflects the verbiage “Veteran Member”) participate on boards that will provide them a forum for maximizing their knowledge, and incorporating this knowledge into gains.

I love the honesty of this board, but having little “moderation” is both a blessing and a curse.

Moderators are not dick-sucking sources, which is good. Consequently sources may have a more difficult time hiding if they are dishonest. However, finding sources is not a difficult task for the pro (or vet). Still, disputes are un-shepherded. (Having said this, often censored forum moderators simply side with the resident drug dealer, or long time esteemed member despite cause or reason not to).

As well, Meso or “thinksteroids” does not have the level of focused forums such as a board like TID. For example, most noobs do not wander into a powerlifting forum or discussion, unless they have something to ask or contribute, which keeps the focus on said activity. IMO, the vision of this board is very different than a board like TID.

Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of things I love of this board but currently I do feel it is, or headed in the direction, of being a place where pro (or vet) BBs will come to exchange bro knowledge, which I might add that I agree with PC in the respect that it can be valuable. - IF it is backed up by supporting information that can help quantify it. Quantifying it is a difficult task. To simply say based on my experience…. well, that can be risky, and guys sometimes like to stretch the truth.

Of course in my experience boards like TID seem to lack the medical knowledge that we have at Meso, thanks to guys like Michael and Jim, which I appreciate.

 

[Pericles]

Good points, Super. On most boards, like the car forums I frequent, if the discussion deteriorates into personal attacks, the mods step in and steer the convo back to OT.

And these are places where guys are dropping $350K on a Turbo charged Lamborghini. My little old GT2 w/ 800 rwhp was not even considered that fast, despite the $140K I had in her. Needles to say, these guys are very well off, yet still would act like little children on occasion. Stretch saw the vid of me running Jamie Carter, a legendary street racer. He makes more money in 2 months than I do in a year, and all that money has made him less mature. He will call you out, and then trailer his car half way around the country for a money race. Money and IQ really have no bearing on manners and civility.

On this forum, there's virtually no moderation unless you threaten to beat someone up. I understand the reason but I hope that in some way we can learn to not let ourselves get drawn down and in.

 

[ChaseQ]

Im to old and lazy to start at a new place...guess Im stuck here with you rotten assholes! (The language was intended and I dare ya to ask for an apology!)

Side note,
IronDen is cool
and Pericles isnt.

 

[ericraven2003]

Pro Muscle.

 

[Dr JIM]

Is there a good controlled study of large BB'ers (twice the size of women) using lots of gear w/ lots of gyno being saved by 20 mgs of Nolva? I would love to see that.

I really don't know how to make this any easier to comprehend but the female dosage of Tamo was a WEIGHT based analysis extrapolated from pathological cell blocks. These cell blocks were then "sectioned" to determine the NUMBER OF "glandular cells" in a particular dimension.

From this DATA a rough estimate of the number of "glandular breast cells" males and females have can be made using imaging studies such as; CT, MRI or Sonography

There is no comparison between males and females in that regard regardless of breast size with VERY FEW exceptions.

Once the number of cells is known, using "Avagadro's number" the number of SERM molecules needed to bind the E-2 receptors can also be approximated and from that calculation, milligrams discerned.

Finally IF ALL THE receptors are bound with a SERM molecule, it really doesn't matter how much E-2 is "free" because someone is a "heavy user" of aromatizable AAS, since the estrogen CAN NOT interact with the SERM BOUND E-2 receptor.

JIM

 

[Dr JIM]

The point of my last post is, for SERMs to be effective in PMP females the dosage was chosen that would theoretically block ALL of the females E-2 dependent glandular receptors PLUS 100%.

Ergo since a SERM dosage of 20mg binds 200% of female E-2 breast receptors, I promise that dose is more than adequate for males with a little gynecomastia.

Some of same techniques are utilized to determine the dosage of a variety or receptor dependent medication, such as Digoxin, Beta blockers, hormonal therapies , ect. Fortunately medicine has progressed beyond the era of giving enough digitalis "until they puked" to determine efficacy, lol!

jim

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I really don't know how to make this any easier to comprehend but the female dosage of Tamo was a WEIGHT based analysis extrapolated from pathological cell blocks. These cell blocks were then "sectioned" to determine the NUMBER OF "glandular cells" in a particular dimension.

From this DATA a rough estimate of the number of "glandular breast cells" males and females have can be made using imaging studies such as; CT, MRI or Sonography

There is no comparison between males and females in that regard regardless of breast size with VERY FEW exceptions.

Sometimes pictures help get the point across.

In the two pictures below, can you guess which one has more glandular breast cells?

Can you think of any reason why the person in the picture on the left would need more SERM than the person on the right?