Well boys, I think I'm converting

[musclebobbuffpants]

The more I read about WSB and other PL training methods, the more intrigued I become. Where I used to be more focused on gaining size, I am now more interested in gaining power and strength.

Before I go on, I want to say that I think I'm done using gear. I didn't think I'd ever be saying that, but I just cant stand the ups and downs from juice. I don't experience a whole lot of emotional ups and downs, but the strength gains that come, only to be lost, at least partially are what really bother me. So, I'm going natural.

Anyways, I want to set up a 3 or 4 day pl routine, but I'm having a hard time putting things together. For instance, if I do a 4 day routine, squating on Mon(ME) and Thurs(DE), and benching Tues(ME) and Fri(ME), where would I throw Dead lifts in at? Would I do a ME and DE on DL as well, or would that be to taxing on the CNS. Now we do have chains at our gym but no bands, should I start using the chains right away or wait until I become more acclimated to this type of workout.

I'm looking for any suggestions you may have to offer, even to see your current routine would help me out a ton. Freddy, Phreezer, what type of routine are you guys doing right now?

Thanks alot bros,

musclebobbuffpants

 

[Bob Smith]

Before jumping into chains and bands, get your program down. A typical WSB program is 4 main workouts (and often many shorter workouts) per week. IIRC, most Westside guys lift Mon, Tues, Thurs and Saturday. A day break between ME days is probably a good idea. Also, WSB guys deadlift maybe every few weeks, for speed.

AnimalMass would be an excellent one to answer this, as he probably has the most Westside experience out of all of us.

 

[musclebobbuffpants]

Thanks Bob, yeah, the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to get my routine down for a while before jumping into the chains.

Right now I'm on a 4 day, but only working everything once/wk. I've been doing box squats the last couple wks for 10x2's progressing up in % and then doing 5x5's on bench, dl, and push press and 2x8's on rows and auxileries.

I too would like to hear what AM has to say.

musclebobbuffpants

 

[Phreezer]

First off I want to congratulate you on your decission to go drug free!!!! And I want to welcome you to the other side.. You'll find that Powerlifting is so much more fun that body building.. You'll actualy enjoy almost every aspect of your workout!!!

Just to give you an idea on how to set up a west side routine... I'll post something here... But Freddy, Animal Mass, Gavin (where are you anyway?) and myself will do our best to help you out!! And again.. Congrats on going drug free.. I wish I had made that decission myself long before I actualy did...

the workout..

Monday - Max Effort Lower Body Day
Box Squats 3 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)
Good Mornings 3 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)

Pull-Throughs 4-8 sets of 8

Pull-down Abs 3-7 sets of 8
Hanging Leg Raises 4 sets to failure
Reverse Hypers 4 sets of 8

Wednesday - Max Effort Bench Day
-First 2 weeks: Board Press 3 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)
-Second 2 weeks: Floor Press 3 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)

Skull Crushers 60 total reps w/10 rep max per set

Seated Cable Row 3 sets of 8 (3-5 warm-up sets)
Face Pulls 3 sets of 8
External Rotations 4 sets of 8

Friday - Dynamic Effort Lower Body Day
Box Squat 15 sets of 2 reps

Romanian Deadlifts 4 sets of 15

Pull -down Abs 3-7 sets of 8
Hanging Leg Raises 4 sets to failure
Reverse Hypers 4 sets of 8

Sunday - Dynamic Effort Bench Day
Bench Press 15 sets of 3 reps

Pin Press 2 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)

Bent-over Barbell Rows 3 sets of 5 (3-5 warm-up sets)
Face Pulls 3 sets of 8
External Rotations 3 sets of 8
Seated Dumbbell Press 3 sets of 8

 

[musclebobbuffpants]

Thanks Phreez, those are encouraging words my friend.

OK a couple of questions for you,

I've been reading the articles over at elitefts by Dave T., Louie, and others. In Dave's 9wk basic training article he suggest doing GM's for ME squat day for 4wks, no more than 3 reps working to a max single, and then switching to low box squat for another 4 wks. Can you explain your reasoning behind doing GM and Box squat for 3 sets of 5? (sorry, I'm one of those detail kinda guys) Also, would I pyramid up to my max set of 5?

We do not have a GHR machine nor a reverse hyper machine, is there something else I can use to get the same benefit from these?

There are quite a few exercises that I'm not familiar with, such as Romanian DL, face pulls, JM press, and others. Is there a sight that describes these exercises and how to properly do them?


Thanks again bro, I'm sure I'll have some more question for you as I move along.



musclebobbuffpants

 

[Bob Smith]

Here are a bunch more articles by Simmons and Tate. http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm

 

[Freddy]

Phreezer's routine looks good. Instead of GHRs, you can do "natural ham curls", or even just machine ham curls. Intead of Rev hypers, do normal back extensions, seated good mornings, or pull throughs.

But, since you asked, I'll post what I'm doing right now. First, understand that until a week ago, I had been doing strict Westside style training for...oh, I wanna say just shy of a year...probably 8-10 months. I'll have to check my training journal to be sure. In that time period I really hadn't gained any weight, but I didn't really care because I was doing well in my weight class in competition. And of course my strength was going up, so I was happy.

However, I talked to JS about this at length the other day, and I really can't get any stronger without also getting bigger. My body is about as "efficient" and as "peaked" as it can get. Trying to lift more at this bodyweight would likely just result in me getting hurt.

So, JS tweaked my program a little bit to put on some muscle. Its nothing radical, or new, or groundbreaking. There are no new fads in my program...he just combined Westside with the 5x5 program. You'll notice that instead of maxing out every week, I do 5 sets of 5 reps with a set amount of weight. If I get all 5 sets with all 5 reps, I add 5-10 pounds next week and try again. Here is what it looks like:

Monday: Normally my "Max Effort" bench press day.

Flat bench DB press: 5x5
Push Presses: 5x5
Rows: (periodized Westside style)
Reverse Hypers: (Westside style)
External Rotations for rotator cuff: 2x8
Curls: 2x15
Elbow prehab

Wednesday: Normally my "Max Effort" squat/deadlift day.

Olympic Squats (narrow stance): 5x5
Stiff Legged Deadlifts: 5x5
Reverse Hypers: 3x8
Ab work
Side bends
Reverse curls:2x15

Friday: Dynamic Effort bench day
Speed bench with bands: 8x3
Close grip 2 board bench: 3x5
Rows
Reverse Hypers
Curls
Elbow Prehab

Sunday: Dynamic Squat/DL day
Box squats with bands: 8x2
Speed deadlifts with bands, sometimes standing on a platform with the bar resting right on top of my feet: 6x1
Reverse Hypers: 3x8
Shrugs: (I do shrugs for grip work, since I don't like static holds. This means I never use straps, and I usually either go for really high reps (20) or I use a 'clean grip', or sometimes both).
Ab work
Side bends


Thats what it currently looks like. In about 4-5 weeks, I'll stop doing the 5x5 stuff and go back to a 100% normal Westside routine. That means maxing every week. I'll stick with that for about 3-4 weeks and after that try the 5x5 stuff again.

I hope you're still reading up to this point, because I think what I'm about to say is the most important part of this post. I hope I haven't bored you already so that you glance over this.

First of all, my routine is a lil more complicated than I could get into here. I mean, Westside training changes a lot over the course of a training cycle, and there is a lot of experimentation. In fact, there is probably TOO MUCH experimentation...but that is a subject for a whole 'nother post.

My point is, I really don't think you should copy my routine. I posted it here because you asked, and I don't see the harm in sharing as long as everyone knows WHY I do what I do. But honestly, its not for everyone. Its specifically designed to meet my current needs at this exact moment in my training. It is NOT a general strength training routine.

I'm not sure what your goals are, but I would imagine a general strength training routine would be best for you. If that is the case, I still believe, as I always have...that the original 5x5 program that JS posted is the way to go. Sure, there have been a lot of other programs posted recently. AnimalMass's, Grizzly's, Hogg's, HST, etc etc. But, I'm still partial to the 5x5. The problem is...is that the 5x5 is really hard, people tend to use too much weight in the first 5 weeks, and...haha...IT CAN BE PRETTY BORING! Haha, so...thats the reason I like to see other strength training routines...like Grizzly's and Hogg's...just because they look like they can keep beginners interested. The 5x5 won't work if you get bored and stop doing it (though I think its a pretty fun program).

Anyway, I'm really rambling now...and if I keep this post going any longer, I definitely will bore you to death if I haven't already. But...my advice to you is to do a general strenth training routine, with narrow stance Olympic squats, and to stick with it for about 6-9 months.

 

[musclebobbuffpants]

Thanks Bob for the link.

Freddy, it's interesting that you recommend 5x5's. I've been toying with the thought of it now for a few wks. If I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like you're suggesting the 5x5's as a means to conditioning me for WSB style? While I completely agree that it is a very good program, I'm not exactly sure that I need to go that route first. Maybe I do.

Your program looks good, but I would never try it. I'm not that conditioned yet. Anyways, thanks for your words of advice. I have a lot to consider now.

musclebobbuffpants

 

[Freddy]

Thanks Bob for the link.

Freddy, it's interesting that you recommend 5x5's. I've been toying with the thought of it now for a few wks. If I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like you're suggesting the 5x5's as a means to conditioning me for WSB style? While I completely agree that it is a very good program, I'm not exactly sure that I need to go that route first. Maybe I do.

Your program looks good, but I would never try it. I'm not that conditioned yet. Anyways, thanks for your words of advice. I have a lot to consider now.

musclebobbuffpants

No, I think the way a lot of people do WSB now you actually don't need as good conditioning as you do for 5x5. As conditioning is concerned, I think the 5x5 is a "harder" program.

I'm trying to stear you away from WSB right now for a couple of reasons. For starters, there is a steep learning curve. A lot of people don't do it right in the beginning. We can help you, but still, we're not there with you in the gym. There is only so much that can be discussed over the net.

Second of all, WSB is really geared towards competitive powerlifting, not recreational strength training. JS was talking to me about this very topic the other day. You won't benefit from all the work in squat suits and briefs that they do. WSB will definitely increase your ability to display a 1 rep max in competition, but it will not necessarily bring up your raw day-to-day gym strength. It CAN do this...but it needs to be modified in some way. One way to modify it is to do what I'm doing now.

I think a better use of your time would be to do the 5x5 and really raise your raw, narrow stance Olympic squat, and your JS-style barbell row. I think that will deliever the strength results you want to see.

If the 5x5 looks too boring, do AnimalMass's program instead. I think that would be a better choice for you than straight up WSB.

 

[Phreezer]

I guess I sometimes get ahead of myself.. When someone tells me they want to be a powerlifter, or they want to learn westside principles, I automaticaly assume that they want to compete.. So I just start down that road with them from the beginning.

Okay.. Q & A time...

The point behind alternating ME exercises is to help keep you from overtraining.. At first you'll do the same exercise for 3-4 weeks, and then you'll drop that down to 2 weeks.. Say you DO Heavy Good mornings for 2 weeks for your Main ME exercise... then you do Heavy Squats for 2 weeks for your Main ME exercise .. Then you Do heavy Deadlifts for your Main ME exercise for two weeks.. and maybe start over... After awhile you'll eventualy get to where your alternating ME exercises every week.. This is when you get more advanced and MUCH more familar with westside principles, and you've learned how your body will adapt and what kind of conditioning it will take... All of these workouts basicaly work the same muscle groups.. Your Core and your Legs..however, each of these exercises hit the muscles slightly differant changing the load that is placed on them slightly.. If you Keep Doing Heavy squats at X # of sets for X # of weeks at X # of weight, you'll eventualy overtrain.. However, by simply changing the exercise will change the way that those muscles are directly trained and thus allow for growth and traing and RECOVERY at the same time.. West Side is essentialy a Dual Factor program.. Does that answer your question?

Like Freddy said about the alternatives to GHR.. And believe me these are poor substitutes.. but they will still work (I know, my gym doesn't have a glute ham raise either) A trick I learned at my gym was to take an ab crunch board.. drop it to parrelel and get on my knees with my butt facing the feet pads, I hook my feet in the pads, and using my Glutes and Hamstrings I lower myself down... If you go to the Dual Factor thread in this this forum, you'll see that I've attatched pics on how to do this variation on the floor with a cable machine.. You will also find pics on how to properly do GM's and pullthrough's etc....

If you're not looking to compete, and you are simply wanting to get stronger, or just get a good feel what powerlifting is about, you should check out DFHT. as I think it will ultimatly serve you much better.

 

[musclebobbuffpants]

Those are good words Freddy and you're right, I don't plan to compete any time soon, I just want to build explosive power and strength for my own personal goals. I thought that WSB style training would be the best way to go about this. Perhaps I will start with 5x5's for a couple 8wk cycles and see how it goes, then start into WSB. Then as my core lifts go up, perhaps I'll consider competing.

Phreezer, my appologies bro, I should have been more clear in my goals. I hope you don't think you waisted your time on me. As I said, you've been very encouraging along with the others, and I want to learn as much as I possibly can about strength training and PL.

I have been reading a ton, but man I have a lot to learn yet. I want to thank you guys for all the help you've given me so far. You've been very encouraging. As I said in my original post, I want to get away from always being concerned if I'm gaining any size or not. It's very draining, mentally, getting on the scales every day to see if you've gained a pound only to have lost two. Looking in the mirror every chance you get to see if you look any different than you did 5 mins. prior. Right now, I'm just gonna focus on my strength and not worry about the other. It comes down to the fact that it's time for a change, and this is where it starts.

musclebobbuffpants

 

[Gavin Laird]

Phreezer,

I'm here! Sorry man just really busy with the january crowd at my gym right now so i dont have as much free time to post on boards etc. Still get a post in once in a while here and there though

MBBP - I agree with the others here...Start with 5 x 5 or something with a little more volume in the classical lifts rather than WSB style training. Once you have a good amount of strength etc you can try WSB or similar rotating ME / DE type split if you decide you want to compete in PL.

Cheers,

Gav.

 

[musclebobbuffpants]

OK, it's sinking in now. IE., train in a manner that meets your goals. Why didn't I think of that earlier. I know it, I just couldn't see it. I think my vision was clouded by my frustration with myself.

You guys truly have been a blessing to me in helping me sort this out.


musclebobbuffpants

 

[Phreezer]

Good to see you here Gavin.. The training forum is not as competent when you're gone..... And besides that... we need you to keep us updated on how the folks on the other side of the pond are doing things..

Welcome back... and I'm glad to hear that your business is keeping you busy...That's always a good thing!