What ng/dl should we aim for, for longevity and quality of life?

[OmL]

Watching videos here and there and we see and hear different things. Take Jay Cutler for example, he was on with Gregg Doucette and he claimed that he tried to stay around the 600ng/dl level. I am unsure if I believe that, but I want to take him at his word.

I know how to get myself to in and around 1000ng/dl, and also how to get to in and around 800ng/dl. I’m currently cruising at a stable pace to see what it takes me to (hopefully) hover at 600ng/dl.

Now bear in mind, I’m supposed to be on some version of TRT. But where I live it’s a bad system, the first attempt is using gels, other methods are a massive shot of nebido 4 or so times a year. So I chose to do it myself, I still visit an endo and get bloods done frequently.

Right now, I feel like, as my wife would say, a boiled shite. The different between the doses had me shed body fat at first, as my appetite went, but then i wasn’t eating enough to fuel my workouts, wasn’t eating enough to maintain my size. I’m back to being what I can only describe as ‘fuzzy’. I do blast once or so a year, and the size comes back rapidly. But surely that’s worse for me, to build it all and then lose some of it? And then question it all like this?

I feel wonderful with my levels up around 1000ng/dl, or 977ng/dl as the bloodwork said.

What’s the ideal goal here for our health, and the best mix of being a bigger than average person AND living for a good long-enough-life? My endo is also adamant that I need to be 600ng/dl, and I’m sure there is a reason for it.

 

[Deleted member 123722]

I would assume if the "normal" range is anywhere from 300-1000, I'd want to be on the higher end.

Milos has run 500mg for years, and he's healthy; everyone is different.

 

[lukiss96]

Since we do blast and use something on occasion that's where the problem really is. Why do we blast in the first place? To become bigger, stronger and leaner version of ourselves.

The worst part is the after effect of keeping it, let's be honest the "bicycle" guys just lose it all once they crash their bike (come off and pct), we who trt/cruise have the privilege to keep more.

Here comes in the greediness, are we gonna lie that we are only doing TRT? or are we gonna admit that it gives us an edge over naturals by cruising/trt'ing at say 150-250mg of Testosterone per week? I think we actually do both.

Now as for 600, 800, 1000 or even over, that's where you have to decide for yourself. Do you want to truly do TRT and be like a natural young athletic guy who looks good? Then 600 is reality with 800 being the absolute maximum. Let's be real that this guy, while athletic is no bodybuilder and he walks at lean 185 pounds at 6ft. not at 200+ pounds.

I say it all depends on your goals, you want to B&C? Then I doubt 600 gonna do it, yeah you can maintain some size over the natural, but it's not what most are looking for, most likely 1000+ is your best option for long term health and performance.

Myself? I'm thinking about it still, I at one point was ~700, it felt good, high natural like, no estrogen problems, felt as close to that natural guy I described earlier as possible I think. It was relief, but then greediness took over. So here I'm at ~1100-1200 now, reading this and remembering how it was actually good sit at 600-700.

 

[SonhoDourado]

I think Jay is likely supplementing with a bit more than just TRT. Not knocking the champ but calling it like i see it. He's got the genetics and muscle memory for sure. What i find hard to believe is how he keeps that amount of muscle on him with a 600ng/dl test level. Remember low T is anything under 300ng/dl. So is 600ng/dl allow you to maintain that level of muscle and fitness? He'd have to be taking 100mg or less a week to maintain such a low level unless he doesn't respond well, which maybe is the case, who knows? Maybe with all the stuff and years of running it he only gets to 600 on 200mg/test/week?

Most labs have 800-1200 as the high end. I ALWAYS want to be as close to that as possible when on TRT. The vitality, endurance,musclulature, and overall well being on that spectrum have always suited me well.

TRT clinics routinely have people in the 1000-1500 levels with little issues. I think if your bloodwork is good and you feel good at the higher end of normal than stay the course.

You have to remember that TRT is a new and evolving science and that most doctors have less knowledge on the subject than we do. They see the lab value range as the end all be all and want you in that range period!

 

[OmL]

Since we do blast and use something on occasion that's where the problem really is. Why do we blast in the first place? To become bigger, stronger and leaner version of ourselves.

The worst part is the after effect of keeping it, let's be honest the "bicycle" guys just lose it all once they crash their bike (come off and pct), we who trt/cruise have the privilege to keep more.

Here comes in the greediness, are we gonna lie that we are only doing TRT? or are we gonna admit that it gives us an edge over naturals by cruising/trt'ing at say 150-250mg of Testosterone per week? I think we actually do both.

Now as for 600, 800, 1000 or even over, that's where you have to decide for yourself. Do you want to truly do TRT and be like a natural young athletic guy who looks good? Then 600 is reality with 800 being the absolute maximum. Let's be real that this guy, while athletic is no bodybuilder and he walks at lean 185 pounds at 6ft. not at 200+ pounds.

I say it all depends on your goals, you want to B&C? Then I doubt 600 gonna do it, yeah you can maintain some size over the natural, but it's not what most are looking for, most likely 1000+ is your best option for long term health and performance.

Myself? I'm thinking about it still, I at one point was ~700, it felt good, high natural like, no estrogen problems, felt as close to that natural guy I described earlier as possible I think. It was relief, but then greediness took over. So here I'm at ~1100-1200 now, reading this and remembering how it was actually good sit at 600-700.

All of my markers are mid range when cruising at 175mg/977ng. I keep thinking that I might just stay at that, until perhaps 40-50 and start scaling back then.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

Since we do blast and use something on occasion that's where the problem really is. Why do we blast in the first place? To become bigger, stronger and leaner version of ourselves.

The worst part is the after effect of keeping it, let's be honest the "bicycle" guys just lose it all once they crash their bike (come off and pct), we who trt/cruise have the privilege to keep more.

Here comes in the greediness, are we gonna lie that we are only doing TRT? or are we gonna admit that it gives us an edge over naturals by cruising/trt'ing at say 150-250mg of Testosterone per week? I think we actually do both.

Now as for 600, 800, 1000 or even over, that's where you have to decide for yourself. Do you want to truly do TRT and be like a natural young athletic guy who looks good? Then 600 is reality with 800 being the absolute maximum. Let's be real that this guy, while athletic is no bodybuilder and he walks at lean 185 pounds at 6ft. not at 200+ pounds.

I say it all depends on your goals, you want to B&C? Then I doubt 600 gonna do it, yeah you can maintain some size over the natural, but it's not what most are looking for, most likely 1000+ is your best option for long term health and performance.

Myself? I'm thinking about it still, I at one point was ~700, it felt good, high natural like, no estrogen problems, felt as close to that natural guy I described earlier as possible I think. It was relief, but then greediness took over. So here I'm at ~1100-1200 now, reading this and remembering how it was actually good sit at 600-700.

I can tell a major difference on TRT compared to pct and I love it.

I’m sitting at 1100-1200 though. Naturally my last test was 650-700. After my next cycle I plan on trying to sit around 800 at most just to see how I feel at a truer trt dose. It makes me a little uneasy knowing that in reality I’m almost sitting at double what I was naturally.

 

[lukiss96]

I can tell a major difference on TRT compared to pct and I love it.

I’m sitting at 1100-1200 though. Naturally my last test was 650-700. After my next cycle I plan on trying to sit around 800 at most just to see how I feel at a truer trt dose. It makes me a little uneasy knowing that in reality I’m almost sitting at double what I was naturally.

Oh yeah, I tried pct once, I did recover and said f* it. I wanted to play, I paid the price and now I'm okay with taking testosterone.

In case I ever need to come off, which I don't think I will, I can and probably bounce back to adequate testosterone levels. But I see no reason to, the fertility protocols (if needed at all) you can definitely do them while on trt. and not everyone gets infertile on exogenous hormones to begin with.

Sure the true TRT is 600-800, I've been there and it's decent, yes that's about it, a relief sort of no ai, no random estrogen sides (they rarely happen though), you kinda feel natural on it and it feels good... BUT then comes in the ego and you begin to question, why all this just for almost no benefits. That's when I raised my T to get back to slightly supraphysiological levels. I can't speak for others, but I just think that I'm not alone on this one.

 

[lukiss96]

All of my markers are mid range when cruising at 175mg/977ng. I keep thinking that I might just stay at that, until perhaps 40-50 and start scaling back then.

If you feel fine on it and your health is at least decent, then there's no need to change anything, unless a) you're underachieving (of course expectations have to be in place for cruise/trt) and b) your body is telling you that it doesn't like it this high. (this one may sound ridiculous, but body is complex mechanism and it gets tired sometimes, for example I used to handle testosterone so well and even used to cruise after a blast on 500mg for quite a long time in the past. Then it changed and I couldn't do that anymore comfortably.)

 

[Theworm]

I believe @PeterBond says around 500 ng/dl is ideal for longevity….

 

[Deezznutzz]

I feel great around 1200-1300ish.

 

[Theworm]

Back to the OP, I think healthiest would be around 600 but for ego boost for me, two short 8 week blasts per year with short esters to maintain size etc… Shorter time under curve of higher doses etc

 

[RzSco]

I've been on nearly 3000ng for six months now plus added Mast and I still don't "feel good" so god knows how bad I'd feel on proper trt dosage

 

[OmL]

I've been on nearly 3000ng for six months now plus added Mast and I still don't "feel good" so god knows how bad I'd feel on proper trt dosage

You’d almost certainly feel better.

 

[Rido]

I feel great around 800ng/dl. That is about 160 a week of test C for me.

I am assuming its 180 of Test U

 

[KeenObserver]

I've been on nearly 3000ng for six months now plus added Mast and I still don't "feel good" so god knows how bad I'd feel on proper trt dosage

That's probably because it's far beyond the "feel good" range lol. Levels too low or too high aren't good, I think the sweet spot is in the low 1000s.

 

[Rido]

That's probably because it's far beyond the "feel good" range lol. Levels too low or too high aren't good, I think the sweet spot is in the low 1000s.

yea. people have this thought that more is better.

Most users have established they feel best in mid to upper normal physiological range.

 

[BlackFrog]

I think Jay is likely supplementing with a bit more than just TRT. Not knocking the champ but calling it like i see it. He's got the genetics and muscle memory for sure. What i find hard to believe is how he keeps that amount of muscle on him with a 600ng/dl test level. Remember low T is anything under 300ng/dl. So is 600ng/dl allow you to maintain that level of muscle and fitness? He'd have to be taking 100mg or less a week to maintain such a low level unless he doesn't respond well, which maybe is the case, who knows? Maybe with all the stuff and years of running it he only gets to 600 on 200mg/test/week?

Most labs have 800-1200 as the high end. I ALWAYS want to be as close to that as possible when on TRT. The vitality, endurance,musclulature, and overall well being on that spectrum have always suited me well.

TRT clinics routinely have people in the 1000-1500 levels with little issues. I think if your bloodwork is good and you feel good at the higher end of normal than stay the course.

You have to remember that TRT is a new and evolving science and that most doctors have less knowledge on the subject than we do. They see the lab value range as the end all be all and want you in that range period!

Just my take on it but also keep in mind he's keeping 600 net, as in after all his muscles/receptors are uptaking the test. He might be maintaining on even more than the average 150 lb. on true TRT would be on since his body is sponging up so much more test and leaving that 600 in the bloodstream as extra.