What's your current old man cycle?

[JP RIGGS]

How long do you do that dose or is it permanent?

Permanent. Sometimes ill bump the test up to 400 for a few months. I try to tell people there's a difference between TRT & TOT which is testosterone optimization therapy or sports TRT/TRT+. Ive been on this protocol for 5 years now.

 

[malfeasance]

Permanent. Sometimes ill bump the test up to 400 for a few months. I try to tell people there's a difference between TRT & TOT which is testosterone optimization therapy or sports TRT/TRT+. Ive been on this protocol for 5 years now.

Any chance you would share your lipids from your last blood test with us?

 

[JP RIGGS]

that's a helluva HRT

Yes sir! Only thing missing is some HGH

 

[Ateam2023]

Permanent. Sometimes ill bump the test up to 400 for a few months. I try to tell people there's a difference between TRT & TOT which is testosterone optimization therapy or sports TRT/TRT+. Ive been on this protocol for 5 years now.

i'm curious how your blood work looks like with being on deca that long? You said you've been doing this combo for 5 years?

 

[JP RIGGS]

Any chance you would share your lipids from your last blood test with us?

 

[JP RIGGS]

i'm curious how your blood work looks like with being on deca that long? You said you've been doing this combo for 5 years?

Yes, I started this protocol in OCT 2019 and before that I was taking 200mgs test cyp weekly for 12 years. Blood work looks fine and I get organ imaging, ECHO, EKG and a pretty detailed physical exam yearly through my job for free. My ALT has always been elevated but GGT is always normal so is liver ultrasound. Also CRP was .63mg/L

 

[egruberman]

So what are you doing right now, and how does each item and dose you have selected factor into it as a means to your goal?

Great questions.

It’s definitely an off season cycle. The test and primo are at a ratio that keeps my E2 in a good place. I didn’t settle on this dose so much as went into the cycle with the intention of seeing how much I could tolerate without sides if my biomarkers were good.

All my pre-cycle bloodwork came up golden, so I kicked it off and titrated up over 8 weeks. I reached this dosage with no discernible side effects, not even mild ones. I arrived at this dose for no other reason than it fills two 1ml syringes daily, seems kinda ridiculous, and I sorta chickened out on my willingness to see how far I could push it.

The tren ace and anadrol are more or less just a desire on my part to see how I react to those compounds. I ran some of both for a few weeks and had great results in the gym. Started getting a little more aggro with the tren and pulled them out, not least because I doubt I can sustain the intensity in the gym through the holidays. I train 5 days a week, but I have some travel scheduled where I’ll need to take some time off and if I resume with the same intensity after a week break I’ll hurt myself.

The tirzepatide is there to maintain insulin sensitivity and keep me from gaining too much fat. I hit my protein and carb targets just fine, but I don’t have the bandwidth to track calories that closely, and so the tirz keeps my weight gain in check.

Just to be clear, I have zero problems eating enough to gain. I’ve been 340lbs in the past and if I had started this as a younger person, I have no doubt I could become a monster.

In this cycle I’ve gained 20lbs or so. I imagine 10 is water, I filled up pretty quickly when I upped the carbs. I’ve gained a few pounds of fat and I suspect 7 or so pounds of lean tissue.

I think you need to question your assumption that, for example, 2.5 grams of testosterone is going to do any more for you over the next 12 weeks than one gram of testosterone would. Or 800 mg.

I appreciate you challenging me on this ridiculous cycle and I suspect you’re absolutely right. I’m definitely not a hyper-responder, I’m making gains but certainly not blowing up. I’d probably have the same results on half the dose.

Once this is done, I’m going to lean out and assess the results. My body fat according to dexa was 7% at the beginning. I’m guessing I’m around 11% now relative to the dexa scan. When I cut I’m hoping to get close to 5%… again, according to dexa…. Which is probably a couple percent higher than a visual assessment would be. IE if “show ready” is 5% I imagine I’ll be a couple percent higher than that even though the dexa says otherwise.

After that I’ll need to do some organ imaging and make a call on having surgery to remove some loose skin. Finally I’ll need to decide how big I ultimately want to be. Lately I’ve been enjoying rock climbing twice a week and even though it’s mostly lean tissue, the extra 20lbs hasn’t done wonders for my performance.

One metric is strength is a one-arm lock off, which is the ability to do an isometric hang on a pullup bar with one arm at 90 degrees. At the level I’d like to climb I need to hit ~103% body weight. Holding 175lbs with one arm at a body weight of 170 is very different than holding 206lbs at. A body weight of 200. I think I can hit 180 with my right arm, I could get there with my left but adding 25lbs to either is not something I’m sure I could get to in my lifetime.

Sorry for the ramble, did I miss anything? I really do appreciate your concerns.

 

[malfeasance]

JP Riggs,

Thanks.

So you can see the elevated LDL. It is not super bad, but it is elevated. HDL is not really where it should be, either.

High LDL contributes to plaque in the arteries. This buildup occurs over time. It is not reversible.

While the effects have not shown up yet if your blood pressure is low, you are intentionally creating an environment where you are adding to the plaque a little bit at a time, but constantly over years.

This is one of the things folks here have tried to encourage others to do - bring things back into the physiological levels to let lipids return to normal, then live like that for a while, with low LDL and high HDL.

Elevated LDL over time contributes to a higher risk of cardiovascular events.

I am only pointing this out in case you were unaware of the risk.

 

[malfeasance]

Finally I’ll need to decide how big I ultimately want to be. Lately I’ve been enjoying rock climbing twice a week and even though it’s mostly lean tissue, the extra 20lbs hasn’t done wonders for my performance.

One metric is strength is a one-arm lock off, which is the ability to do an isometric hang on a pullup bar with one arm at 90 degrees. At the level I’d like to climb I need to hit ~103% body weight. Holding 175lbs with one arm at a body weight of 170 is very different than holding 206lbs at. A body weight of 200. I think I can hit 180 with my right arm, I could get there with my left but adding 25lbs to either is not something I’m sure I could get to in my lifetime.

I can't imagine an open class bodybuilder taking up rock climbing as a sport. LOL

I am thinking being small, lean, wiry would be an advantage.

 

[Eddie.]

@JP RIGGS You need to take care of your diet and cardio. How much do you estimate your bodyfat percentage? Do you track calories and macros and if so how they are?

 

[egruberman]

High LDL contributes to plaque in the arteries. This buildup occurs over time. It is not reversible.

This. There is no reliable means to reverse athereosclerotic plaque.

 

[egruberman]

I can't imagine an open class bodybuilder taking up rock climbing as a sport. LOL

I am thinking being small, lean, wiry would be an advantage.

Power to weight is king, especially for those that compete. The sport itself has some of the strongest people in the world in particular ways, typically around grip.

 

[UncleBuns]

Current:

120mg test U a week
6.25mg Exemastane taken with test U injection every 5 days
Mod GRF/Ipam 500/500mcg pre bed
3iu GH upon waking
1500HCG weekly

Feel excellent and have great health markers

At some point will likely add 150-200mg Mast E weekly and possibly substitute ~45mg Primo e weekly instead of Exemastane. Currently I'm very happy with recovery and aesthetics and I know that adding even those lowish doses on top will have big results for me. I don't need much.

 

[JP RIGGS]

JP Riggs,

Thanks.

So you can see the elevated LDL. It is not super bad, but it is elevated. HDL is not really where it should be, either.

High LDL contributes to plaque in the arteries. This buildup occurs over time. It is not reversible.

While the effects have not shown up yet if your blood pressure is low, you are intentionally creating an environment where you are adding to the plaque a little bit at a time, but constantly over years.

This is one of the things folks here have tried to encourage others to do - bring things back into the physiological levels to let lipids return to normal, then live like that for a while, with low LDL and high HDL.

Elevated LDL over time contributes to a higher risk of cardiovascular events.

I am only pointing this out in case you were unaware of the risk.

You're right, and ive noticed that. I take 10mgs atorvastatin daily, along with 100mcg of Vitamin K2 MK7 and nattokinese and telmisartan. There's too much conflicting info on what cholesterol ranges vs hereditary issues cause. My cholesterol has been like that even before my TOT protocol. I see 2 doctors a year between my PCP and the work doctor that aren't extremely concerned with the cholesterol. That said I need to get a cardiac calcium score done next year. I would debate anyone about physiological vs supra physiological testosterone ranges. Over the years after talking to multiple HRT doctors and reading/seeing studies, that the range is arbitrary. Years ago the total used to be 500-1500nd/dL and as im sure you've seen those ranges come done over the years. Not because of any supporting medical data, but because insurance doesn't want to cover it. Low testosterone is proven to be correlated with all cause mortality, including CVD. Am I rolling the dice with my dose? Maybe, who knows honestly. Whats the risk of not taking any HRT and living with sub optimal levels? I wouldn't go back to that life. Hell, we'lll all probably get cancer before that anyways. Keep in mind, that my PCP provides my HRT. Their practice specializes in HRT and has been around since the 90's, when not many places were offering TRT. The biggest thing, I've learned from them is treat people and symptoms, not a number. There is data out there, and maybe I can find it to show that true symptom resolution starts at 800ng/dL and some all the way to 1200. And, whats interesting is some people can achieve these levels with as low as 70mgs of test a week all the way to 400mgs weekly. Anyways, probably a longer response than needed, but I appreciate your advice and always am open to friendly discussion. For awhile I wouldn't join a forum or comment on Youtube, because I would get "thats not TRT, thats a cycle" replies. I feel its beneficially for open transparency for us to learn more about the TRT/HRT realm and risk mitigation.

 

[JP RIGGS]

This. There is no reliable means to reverse athereosclerotic plaque.

Thats why I take a statin, K2 and get a CRP assay 2x a year. And K2 is shown to reverse it I thought.

 

[UncleBuns]

Thats why I take a statin, K2 and get a CRP assay 2x a year. And K2 is shown to reverse it I thought.

Do you mean vitamin K2? I take the four version and the seven version. I did not know that there was any research that vitamin K can help with arterial plaque.

 

[JP RIGGS]

Do you mean vitamin K2? I take the four version and the seven version. I did not know that there was any research that vitamin K can help with arterial plaque.

Vit K2 MK7. Shown to redistribute calcium build up to teeth and bones...
NATTOKINASE- 2000-4000 FU’S DAILY- reduces plaque GREATLY, prevents blood clots from occurring, lowers hematocrit slightly, increases HDL, lowers LDL, Trigs, and total cholesterol. REGRESSION OF PLAQUE IN BLOOD VESSELS BY UP TO 36%

 

[MA11]

Current:

120mg test U a week
6.25mg Exemastane taken with test U injection every 5 days
Mod GRF/Ipam 500/500mcg pre bed
3iu GH upon waking
1500HCG weekly

Feel excellent and have great health markers

At some point will likely add 150-200mg Mast E weekly and possibly substitute ~45mg Primo e weekly instead of Exemastane. Currently I'm very happy with recovery and aesthetics and I know that adding even those lowish doses on top will have big results for me. I don't need much.

How's your hba1c on that and how long have you been running the hgh?

 

[MA11]

Vit K2 MK7. Shown to redistribute calcium build up to teeth and bones...
NATTOKINASE- 2000-4000 FU’S DAILY- reduces plaque GREATLY, prevents blood clots from occurring, lowers hematocrit slightly, increases HDL, lowers LDL, Trigs, and total cholesterol. REGRESSION OF PLAQUE IN BLOOD VESSELS BY UP TO 36%

I thought the studies on K2 are not conclusive.
Anyways, have you reversed any CAC?

 

[egruberman]

I thought the studies on K2 are not conclusive.

Correct. There are some promising results.

have you reversed any CAC?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm managing LDL and ApoB super low hoping that I might see some reversal in calcified plaque. I've done a fairly extensive review of the literature and there's nothing conclusive with K2 or anything else.

I'll get another CAC mid next year and probably also a CT-A which will be out of pocket but will also give a better picture of endothelial health.