MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Which cycle?
- Thread starter dhriscerr
- Start date
P.s. I've never run. DECA I ran NPP but never the long ester, something about the estrogen and the extremely long half life and detection time scared me away. I typically run short esters because I like 8 week cycles can fit more in a yr and quicker recovery. Just a little background
Ozzy619
New Member
You're good. I personally don't like deca, shuts me down for way too long. I like option number 2
Some thoughts:
Deca is a long ester. By the time you're reaching its full blood saturation levels in the 5th week, your cycle is half over. Thus, a longer cycle of 16-20 is suggested for most to gain its benefits, unless you happen to be a superior responder to that anabolic. For me, I kinda see deca as an injectable var in the nature of its anabolic rating (test with little to no estrogen conversion). Some suggest prami or caber as protection with deca and tren. I've not noticed any sides, however I usually only use deca at 400/week. Not everyone will agree on that, if any. I can cut with deca. And like var, the muscle made is more likely permanent, vs that with androgens due to less water retention.
As for dbol vs var.... What is the overall goal on this cycle. Reason I ask, dbol, in addition to its nitrogen retention qualities, it has a "cosmetic" effect as well. Giving a more pleasing full effect to the overall structure. This is good when you're lean and need a little extra "size" to make it all pop. So, why not come back to dbol at the final week? Heck, include var with it for a more pronounced look.
Var is used typically with two mindsets:
1) powerlifting (aggression/strength)
2) cutting and hardening (cosmetic/hardening)
Up to you what "look" you're going for. Also, knowing how you respond to these substances is key.
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Deca is a long ester. By the time you're reaching its full blood saturation levels in the 5th week, your cycle is half over. Thus, a longer cycle of 16-20 is suggested for most to gain its benefits, unless you happen to be a superior responder to that anabolic. For me, I kinda see deca as an injectable var in the nature of its anabolic rating (test with little to no estrogen conversion). Some suggest prami or caber as protection with deca and tren. I've not noticed any sides, however I usually only use deca at 400/week. Not everyone will agree on that, if any. I can cut with deca. And like var, the muscle made is more likely permanent, vs that with androgens due to less water retention.
As for dbol vs var.... What is the overall goal on this cycle. Reason I ask, dbol, in addition to its nitrogen retention qualities, it has a "cosmetic" effect as well. Giving a more pleasing full effect to the overall structure. This is good when you're lean and need a little extra "size" to make it all pop. So, why not come back to dbol at the final week? Heck, include var with it for a more pronounced look.
Var is used typically with two mindsets:
1) powerlifting (aggression/strength)
2) cutting and hardening (cosmetic/hardening)
Up to you what "look" you're going for. Also, knowing how you respond to these substances is key.
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Keep that in mind, if you're trying to do pct. I don't bother coming off at my age (40). Deca is great for long runs, but then that's the nature of most anabolics like var and deca.
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noah_k
New Member
It is goal dependent as skins says, but I would kickstart with dbol and end with var in a general case. Quickly onset strength and gains earlier, polishing and some last minute retainable gains with closing.
I would definitely recommend using NPP again as opposed to deca (what is it, half-life of 1.5 days versus 7.5?), what is your reason for moving away from short esters? Same goes for test prop versus test e, but to a lesser extreme (especially if using a kickstart).
I will say though if you use a long ester I'd highly recommend frontloading https://thinksteroids.com/articles/how-does-frontloading-improve-a-steroid-cycle/
I would definitely recommend using NPP again as opposed to deca (what is it, half-life of 1.5 days versus 7.5?), what is your reason for moving away from short esters? Same goes for test prop versus test e, but to a lesser extreme (especially if using a kickstart).
I will say though if you use a long ester I'd highly recommend frontloading https://thinksteroids.com/articles/how-does-frontloading-improve-a-steroid-cycle/
I'm not trying to move away from short esters I prefer them I can't get NPP from my local guy and I haven't ordered international since I had a package seized in 2010. I've front loaded before but I'll just run prop for weeks 1-3 so it hits when Tren ace hits before the enathate kicks in. I chose dbol and Tren combo because of the synergy of the two compounds together and I thought var would be that solid finish to the cycle. (Never run var before) only reason for E over P is to keep volume down 6.5ml a week instead of 10ml of oil. Plus my guys P has some PIP lol goal is mass I'm at 3500 cals going to be up to 4500 I maintain around 3200. I'm wondering if I should run Ace until week 12 while E is still coming down but 12 weeks of Tren seems long. My sheets are f@king soaked when I wake up.
hotdog23
New Member
If it ain't broke don't fix it. You've had good results and recovery on short ester 8 wk cycles. I think it's a smart approach. You could do 8 week prop/ace and finish with oral. There are some decent domestic choices available. Hate to see u limited by what your 'guy' has when there's more out there, but I totally understand doin business with someone you trust
Ya maybe sometime I'll look into a domestic for a few things my guy doesn't have - winny, NPP, tbol, hcg, and any blends are the big things he doesn't have. I have yet to find hcg that passes a pregnancy test except when I use to go international also why i like short cycles no hcg for long suppression. I loved NPP.
I think I'm going with cycle 2 with Prop weeks 1-3. If I can handle the PIP maybe I'll drop the E and run it 10 weeks then move my VAR up to weeks 7-10. If I run prop I'll probably drop to 500mg that should give me the same amount of test as 600mg of E
I think I'm going with cycle 2 with Prop weeks 1-3. If I can handle the PIP maybe I'll drop the E and run it 10 weeks then move my VAR up to weeks 7-10. If I run prop I'll probably drop to 500mg that should give me the same amount of test as 600mg of E
Ozzy619
New Member
Thanks noah, I never fully understood frontloading and am glad you posted this
It's all about half life's and the amount that's free. Gets even more in depth if you want to look at the weight of the ester and how much free testosterone there is. 600mg of test e is 420mg of free test where as 600mg of p is 480mg of free test. Where as TNE you get a full 100mg of free test in 100mg.
4leafclover
New Member
Where did you get those numbers? I thought prop converted much higher, you have it at an 80% ratio, and you have enanth at 70%, doesn't seem much of gain to use prop (and I know this isn't true). Steroidplot also shows much more mg per day released with 300mg of prop per week (3 shots) than 500 mg enth per week (2x shots), and steroid plot is a rough tool that has ester life approximately calculated.
I don't have exp with tren, so no comments, but with deca, I always like to run my test longer than I run my deca, those cycles always end up being extremely long (20+ weeks, this includes prop at the end of the cycle to lead into PCT), in order to take full advantage of the deca. Unless you plan on using the short ester deca, which I don't have any exp with (I can't even rem the name of it off the top of my head).
Prop plot for fun
http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=10&...erone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=2&c0_fr=1&c0_to=10
En plot
http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=10&...terone&c0_f=enanthate&c0_s=4&c0_fr=1&c0_to=10
I don't have exp with tren, so no comments, but with deca, I always like to run my test longer than I run my deca, those cycles always end up being extremely long (20+ weeks, this includes prop at the end of the cycle to lead into PCT), in order to take full advantage of the deca. Unless you plan on using the short ester deca, which I don't have any exp with (I can't even rem the name of it off the top of my head).
Prop plot for fun
http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=10&...erone&c0_f=propionate&c0_s=2&c0_fr=1&c0_to=10
En plot
http://steroidplot.com/share/?l=10&...terone&c0_f=enanthate&c0_s=4&c0_fr=1&c0_to=10
I see what you did you took test p every 2 days at 100mg per. And test e every 4 days at 250 per. So that's the first problem in what you got. If you take 100mg p every 2 days for 10 weeks that's 70 days/2 or 35 injections. 35 x 100mg = 3,500mg / 10 weeks is 350mg week. So your actually doing it 7 times in 2 weeks or 3.5 times per week.
Then you put every 4 days for enathate so for 10 weeks that's 70 days/4 or 17.5 injections 17.5 x 250mg = 4,375mg / 10 weeks is 437mg week.
So the table is comparing 437mg of E vs 350mg p.
But I also get what your saying and I'm not disagreeing at all about P vs E and the release per day but that doesn't have to do with the free weight in the suspension that has to do with the amount of time for the ester to be removed.
Then you put every 4 days for enathate so for 10 weeks that's 70 days/4 or 17.5 injections 17.5 x 250mg = 4,375mg / 10 weeks is 437mg week.
So the table is comparing 437mg of E vs 350mg p.
But I also get what your saying and I'm not disagreeing at all about P vs E and the release per day but that doesn't have to do with the free weight in the suspension that has to do with the amount of time for the ester to be removed.
Let's look at it another way since each one is continuously stripping esters at different rates so a percentage of each injection is becoming free 1/2 of test prop is available from a shot mon by Thursday plus some of the wed shot by Friday 3/4 of Mondays shot is avail 1/2 of wed and 1/4 of Fridays shot is available. With enathate if you took it eod in 10 days 1/2 of the first shot is availbe like 4/10 of the second shot 3/10 of the third shot 1/5 of the fourth and 1/10th of the fifth.
....... I did just find this though that has enathate at 55mg out of 100 and prop at 74mg out of 100http://www.anabolicsteroids-hormoneknowledge-bigmuscles-drugs.com/testosterone_esters.html.
I wonder what it is for sure? If I chart it with the link you gave me at 100mg ed for both esters it appears to be a steady average around 70mg for enathate and 87.5mg for prop but you can definitely see how much steady your blood levels are on enathate 65-75mg and prop is 65 to 120mg!
....... I did just find this though that has enathate at 55mg out of 100 and prop at 74mg out of 100http://www.anabolicsteroids-hormoneknowledge-bigmuscles-drugs.com/testosterone_esters.html.
I wonder what it is for sure? If I chart it with the link you gave me at 100mg ed for both esters it appears to be a steady average around 70mg for enathate and 87.5mg for prop but you can definitely see how much steady your blood levels are on enathate 65-75mg and prop is 65 to 120mg!
4leafclover
New Member
The injection timing has nothing to with the MG release per day, I was just trying to show the amount released per day, the timing is arbitrary. You could switch the timing to every 3 days for enanth, and it still shows the same MG per day release, as you found out by ratcheting up the injection to daily.
I can't take credit for the link, someone here showed it to me!
But you did notice that daily injections of 100mg of prop will yield a much higher conversion than you had originally stated.
You have to take the enanth for a longer duration, as the length of time was arbitrary as well, I just did that so you could look at peak release (I.E after 4 weeks) of both esters.
I used 250 of enanth, because that's a common MG usage, along with 100mg of prop EoD.
I don't buy that guys conversion ratios, from the medical community there isn't a half life difference in enanth vs. cyp. The difference is largely based on the oil that houses either ester, medical journals report the same half life time of 10-14 days for either ester. Both are administered every 2 weeks in TRT.
http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/5/409.full
Looks more like bro science to me.
I can't take credit for the link, someone here showed it to me!
But you did notice that daily injections of 100mg of prop will yield a much higher conversion than you had originally stated.
You have to take the enanth for a longer duration, as the length of time was arbitrary as well, I just did that so you could look at peak release (I.E after 4 weeks) of both esters.
I used 250 of enanth, because that's a common MG usage, along with 100mg of prop EoD.
I don't buy that guys conversion ratios, from the medical community there isn't a half life difference in enanth vs. cyp. The difference is largely based on the oil that houses either ester, medical journals report the same half life time of 10-14 days for either ester. Both are administered every 2 weeks in TRT.
http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/5/409.full
Looks more like bro science to me.
Ya I think bumping down to 500mg of prop will still beat 600mg test e so it looks like I'll drop the E go to test p, Tren A dbol for 2 weeks to get rolling then end on 4 weeks of anvar. Gonna steer clear of deca until I can get ahold of NPP. Any of you run primo? That's the only other thing my guy has I haven't tried.
