Why 250mg/week of Testosterone is the best first cycle ever

[RockyP]

210mg had me in 930ng/dl so no, for me 250 it’s not double and surely not triple of a sports trt.

250mg test would be a waste of cycle for me which it was, because I started low with 180mg and in couple months I reached 325mg which had me at 1450ng/dl and it was meh. The “enhanced” feeling with all the benefits came when I reached 500mg + some other goodies.

If someone intends to hop on gear and stay on for a long time or forever like blast and cruise then starting low and titrate later is a good idea, otherwise for in and out cycles like 12-16 cycle anything below 400-500 would be a waste of time for me.

I agree here. I spent 18 months running my basic Barbell lifts up on TRT (200 test, 1.5 GH). Just for perspective, this was 5 rep mas sex of Bench (415), Overhead Press (275), Squat (535), and Deadlift (585). After the first 6-8 months it was pretty brutal. Recovery was hard, joints were killing me. I made significant gains in mass and strength and I wanted to see how far I could push my old body (was 41 at the time) with just TRT dosages.

Now that I've switched back to a bro split with higher reps and volume training, recovery is more manageable, but as Eddie said, I didn't get that "enhanced" feeling that I remember from my 20's when I was running idiotic dosages of gear until I hit 225 Test / 150 primo per week (and moreso now on 300T / 200P), with 4 iu GH.

I think 300-400 test per week, depending on the person and their metabolism, training, diet, etc. can be sufficient. But for rapid metabolizers it may just be so-so. But, we don't know until we try, and it's easier to up the dose than subtract it.

 

[BigTomJ]

Is it worth while to see how you'd respond to a lower dose at first? Then gradually titrate upward? Or are you saying straight to 400 usually works out for most men?

400 will work for all men, and will require some level of estrogen control for most, which is not something to be avoided, it's something that must be learned

 

[wldb33rz]

210mg had me in 930ng/dl so no, for me 250 it’s not double and surely not triple of a sports trt.

But you need data to find out how you respond. In contrast, 175mg got me to 1500ng/dl So a 200 or 250mg would be a nice, supraphysiological level albeit lighter cycle. I also was able to see how I aromatize without actually experiencing the harshest sides of seeing it go way out of control either. So, again, as a first cycle I woulds strongly recommend to start lower manage the sides and step up as you feel you need to, rather than just slamming 500mg just because that's what everyone does (then later regrets)

 

[hexagonal]

Yes, me and many others. Obviously not the majority but there are cases who need 300mg to hit 800ng/dl, with a legit trt script.

That's why my thoughts while using "low" dosages regarding testosterone should be dictated by ng/dl and not milligrams or cc's.

If we talk 500mg+ it's a different story, having 3000 or 4000ng..i doubt it makes that much of a difference, but 700 with 1700 it sure does.

This.

Everybody responds to test differently and we have the tools at our disposal to know how we respond - there's no reason to throw out some blanket input number when we could target the output instead.

 

[readalot]

R

Post in thread 'Tool to Assess your TT dose response --Percentile Curves'

Oct 5, 2023

Linear version of graph....
You can use regression equations from Bi 2018 study to get low, mean, high estimates for TT level vs weekly equivalent dose.



Here’s the mean TT level (ng/dl) for 70. mg/week of Test Cypionate (see equations on chart below):

2.5 percentile response = 360
50 percentile response = 630
97.5 percentile response = 1200

Don't forget to use this table to convert your blood work result (trough) on given dosing protocol to mean:


Table: conversion between peak/trough/mean for first order absorption/elimination PK model assuming 4.5 day elimination...

• readalot

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[Liter O' Test]

I didnt gain much my first year or so running what i thought was a cycle, ~400mg test.
I tested my total T and it was over the cut off of 1500ng/dl so i thought i was good.
little did i know it was at ~1700ng/dl , people didnt really talk about response rates or total t back then
i need like 200 for a cruise depending on the ester.

 

[deadbeef]

R

Post in thread 'Tool to Assess your TT dose response --Percentile Curves'

Oct 5, 2023

Linear version of graph....
You can use regression equations from Bi 2018 study to get low, mean, high estimates for TT level vs weekly equivalent dose.



Here’s the mean TT level (ng/dl) for 70. mg/week of Test Cypionate (see equations on chart below):

2.5 percentile response = 360
50 percentile response = 630
97.5 percentile response = 1200

Don't forget to use this table to convert your blood work result (trough) on given dosing protocol to mean:


Table: conversion between peak/trough/mean for first order absorption/elimination PK model assuming 4.5 day elimination...

• readalot

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• 

This is making the assumption the dose response is linear. Do we know that is the case?

 

[readalot]

This is making the assumption the dose response is linear.

It is not an assumption. It is the data plotted.

Both on an individual and population level the dose response is linear.

I can work through the math if you would like.

 

[Lukas09]

I also like the low as slow approach it’s all bout diet and training you can absolutely gain on 250mg of test a week if u can’t stop and reevaluate….
My sweet spot is 300mg of test a week blood work is perfect every 12 weeks
Also donate a few times a year ….

 

[deadbeef]

It is not an assumption. It is the data plotted.

Both on an individual and population level the dose response is linear.

I can work through the math if you would like.

Using a linear regression, which is an assumption. That assumption does not have to be linear. There also aren't enough points at the higher levels to say that the fit is linear. In fact, there is science that says it's not linear (although it could be linear in the middle range, which again, is not proven by your simple plot):

Similar to all hormones and drugs, over their effective range of biological activity the dose-response relationship for testosterone is usually a sigmoidal curve with lower and upper plateaus joined by a monotonically rising middle region, which may be linear in the natural scale but more often log-linear (linear on the log or similar transformed scale). In the middle portion of the typical sigmoidal dose-response curve for the same increase in testosterone dose (or concentration), the response would be increased in simple proportional (i.e., linear) but more often on a logarithmic scale. In contrast, at the lower and upper plateaus of dose or concentrations, changes in testosterone exposure may evoke minimal or no response on the endpoint.

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770

 

[readalot]

Using a linear regression, which is an assumption.

The stats on the regression support the hypothesis. Linear. So ok, a validated assumption.

Free testosterone concentration proportional to dose...

See all pharmacokinetic literature on serum test dose vs serum level. See theory...law of mass action.

Go back to Bhasin studies that I included on the plot.

That assumption does not have to be linear. There also aren't enough points at the higher levels to say that the fit is linear.

The data points were superimposed on the three regression lines. Those are the Bhasin data. All linear.

In fact, there is science that says it's not linear (although it could be linear in the middle range, which again, is not proven by your simple plot):

The keyword in your quotation...

"Similar to all hormones and drugs, over their effective range of biological activity the dose-response relationship for testosterone is usually a sigmoidal curve with lower and upper plateaus joined by a monotonically rising middle region"

We are not talking about biological activity downstream of serum levels of FT/TT.

We are taking about the relationship of serum level TT/FT itself and exogenous dose.


The article you cited deals with the former. Biological activity.

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770

 

[readalot]

In fact, there is science that says it's not linear (although it could be linear in the middle range, which again, is not proven by your simple plot):

https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/psp4.12287

See data and PK model in supplementary info.

 

[readalot]

In fact, there is science that says it's not linear (although it could be linear in the middle range, which again, is not proven by your simple plot):

Strange. I put all the comprehensive resources in your thread.

D

Thread 'Oxandrolone lowered total testosterone 36% while on TRT?'

Aug 9, 2025

I got an unexpected total testosterone blood test result while on 6 weeks of oxandrolone at 25mg/day. My TRT is 140mg/week.

	Baseline	6 weeks 25mg Oxandrolone
Total Test	1113	697
Free Test	26	25
E2	32	39
SHBG	28	11

Both the TRT and oxandrolone are pharma prescribed by a doctor. I don't think oxandrolone is supposed to drop total test when on TRT so what could cause the big drop?

• deadbeef

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• 

One more time...

Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs - Excel Male Health Forum

Read this chapter. Chapter 12 - Hypothalamo-Pituitary Unit, Testis, and Male Accessory Organs https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323479127000123?via%3Dihub From https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780323479127/yen-and-jaffes-reproductive-endocrinology

www.excelmale.com

 

[deadbeef]

The stats on the regression support the hypothesis. Linear. So ok, a validated assumption.

Not enough data > 500.

https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/psp4.12287

See data and PK model in supplementary info.

Again, no data above 500. Although I concede that these PK models do indicate a linear model up to 500mg, and it is likely to continue to be linear above that.

 

[readalot]

Not enough data > 500.



Again, no data above 500. Although I concede that these PK models do indicate a linear model up to 500mg, and it is likely to continue to be linear above that.

Thanks. The equations are easier to view here...

Population Pharmacokinetic/Pharmacodynamic Modeling of Depot Testosterone Cypionate in Healthy Male Subjects - PMC

A randomized, double‐blind clinical trial was conducted to investigate long‐term abuse effects of testosterone cypionate (TC). Thirty‐one healthy men were randomized into a dose group of 100, 250, or 500 mg/wk and received 14 weekly injections of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One compartment model with first order absorption and elimination.

I know of no mechanism to render the relationship nonlinear above 500. I could spend the rest of my life crowdsourcing data on forums. The next comment would be not enough data above 5000.

That's why we use solid constitutive equations for model building based on firm theory when possible. Less risk of extrapolation.

 

[malfeasance]

Thanks. The equations are easier to view here...

Population Pharmacokinetic/Pharmacodynamic Modeling of Depot Testosterone Cypionate in Healthy Male Subjects - PMC

A randomized, double‐blind clinical trial was conducted to investigate long‐term abuse effects of testosterone cypionate (TC). Thirty‐one healthy men were randomized into a dose group of 100, 250, or 500 mg/wk and received 14 weekly injections of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One compartment model with first order absorption and elimination.

I know of no mechanism to render the relationship nonlinear above 500. I could spend the rest of my life crowdsourcing data on forums. The next comment would be not enough data above 5000.

That's why we use solid constitutive equations for model building based on firm theory when possible. Less risk of extrapolation.

Nobody here runs 5 grams, so that is a little silly to suggest the goal posts would be moved in such a fashion.

Perhaps the lesson here is to be cautious when projecting above 500mg when there is no real world data testing the hypothesis?

 

[readalot]

Perhaps the lesson here is to be cautious when projecting above 500mg when there is no real world data testing the hypothesis?

Hilarious as I was the one trying to collect it. Just goes to show why you don't try these things on forums. No win situation. 500 or 1000 or 2000 mg/week. Won't make a difference in the linearity if you understand how this stuff works.

Free T is linear with dose.

Could easily demonstrate it right now with the data people already have. Would take work and discipline; few seem to want to expend the effort.

 

[readalot]

Open question...

Anyone want to provide their accurate TT/FT/SHBG values on 100, 250, 500, 1000, 2000 mg/week Test ester after stable serum levels reached?

I can easily adjust for dosing frequency, proximity of blood draw to last injection for Test E and Test C.

TT by LCMS and FT by equilibrium dialysis.

...........
?

 

[malfeasance]

I am not even really sure you were responding to what I wrote or just reasserting your premise, which has not been proven.

Hilarious as I was the one trying to collect it. Just goes to show why you don't try these things on forums. No win situation. 500 or 1000 or 2000 mg/week. Won't make a difference in the linearity if you understand how this stuff works.

Free T is linear with dose.

Could easily demonstrate it right now with the data people already have. Would take work and discipline; few seem to want to expend the effort.

 

[readalot]

I am not even really sure you were responding to what I wrote or just reasserting your premise, which has not been proven.

That's ok. I was. There is real world data. Someone has to go to the trouble to post it. Another has the take the time to plot it and run the stats. Let's prove or disprove it.

I just posted the null hypothesis.