Why the disconnect with hcg in trt?

[Theworm]

I'm so confused and the confusion over hcg use in trt.
Every endo I went to says you do not need it. Every hrt clinic I went to says you do. Dr scaly says no, dr John clisser (sp?) says yes after treating thousands of patients.

We know the pros (pregnenolone, sense of well being, DHEA, etc) and cons (E2, need AI), but with millions of people on trt now, how come there are no studies or consensus on whether to add hcg or not? Not talking about fertility mind you.

I personally like the theory of adding hcg but then I need an AI for my rise of E2. So my thoughts were test only is safer than test + hcg + AI But that's just a guess...

 

[MrRippedZilla]

I consider it a necessity if maintaining fertility is a goal since the 2 studies that have looked into the matter have concluded that is a huge benefit in this department:
Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. - PubMed - NCBI
Concomitant intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin preserves spermatogenesis in men undergoing testosterone replacement therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

I personally like being proactive vs reactive and will actively fight with my endo for that script regardless of the fact that I don't plan on having kids anytime soon & that recovering fertility can be treated relatively easily with a myriad of option (even if it does take a little time).

Outside of fertility concerns, it isn't "needed".

 

[Apexvallen]

Basically this:

Outside of fertility concerns, it isn't "needed".

 

[grey]

My doc simply considers it cosmetic... if you want that, you can have it... if not, then not a medical necessity...

 

[chrisZANE]

Im a nurse at a trt clinic and there are a few reasons hcg is recommended.

1: if testicular atrophy secondary to testes not producing is a concern
2: some fertility issues, but honestly patients who are trying to conceive are recommended to come off trt and use clomid and we bring them in monthly to check blood serum test numbers as they go elsewhere to monitor sperm count/health
3: if someone is on upper limit of test mg weekly, their serum number is good, and already incorporating anastrozole and still having libido issues after checking estradiol levels to make sure theyre within normal limits, hcg is offered (ie pregnenalone production)
4: and lastly to the people who have the money and simply want to be on the total package as the hcg can offer some endogenous test production on top of the exogenous injections (which personally i feel is superfluous as it is sending the body mixed messages)

also with trt an AI is not only used when hcg is prescribed. often, anastrozole is written to patients using just the test injections (no hcg) as often testosterone by itself is enough to raise E2 levels to supra-physiologic levels.

i hope this helps shed some light on the subject.

 

[Apexvallen]

3: if someone is on upper limit of test mg weekly, their serum number is good, and already incorporating anastrozole and still having libido issues after checking estradiol levels to make sure theyre within normal limits, hcg is offered (ie pregnenalone production)

HCG alone increases sex drive?

 

[chrisZANE]

HCG alone increases sex drive?

Im not sure of its application/effect outside of trt but in the realm of trt practice hcg helps with production of pregnenolone which can have a positive effect on sex drive as well as mental clarity. so for the patients who are on trt and anastrozole, whos test/e2 levels are great (say 1100ng/dl and 30) but are still having issues with a low sex drive, hcg could potentially solve that problem.

 

[Apexvallen]

Thats fascinating. What about just supplementing the pregnenolone orally to get the same effect?

 

[chrisZANE]

Thats fascinating. What about just supplementing the pregnenolone orally to get the same effect?

Thats a good question, i know one patient in particular has done this and has no complaints about sex drive. however, i dont know if the increased sex drive is correlated to the oral pregnenolone supplementation, or simply the trt itself as he started both simultaneously....ive not done any research on that myself but i know what ill be looking up for the next few days

 

[Apexvallen]

Same. I almost bought a bunch of pregnenolone raws a few weeks ago. Thanks for the info brother

 

[chrisZANE]

Same. I almost bought a bunch of pregnenolone raws a few weeks ago. Thanks for the info brother

yeah man of course! ill post back up a reply here on what i find

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

I did a few months of test E only and a few of test E + HCG and I can say that I totally feel a lot better with HCG; happier, more motivated, semen is like super thick and big loads (some girls love that); much more sex drive and I love the feeling of those 2 big balls hanging around (also some girls love big balls hitting them in the ass when sexy time comes) so to me HCG is a must

 

[EcpertRealistic]

I'm so confused and the confusion over hcg use in trt.
Every endo I went to says you do not need it. Every hrt clinic I went to says you do. Dr scaly says no, dr John clisser (sp?) says yes after treating thousands of patients.

We know the pros (pregnenolone, sense of well being, DHEA, etc) and cons (E2, need AI), but with millions of people on trt now, how come there are no studies or consensus on whether to add hcg or not? Not talking about fertility mind you.

I personally like the theory of adding hcg but then I need an AI for my rise of E2. So my thoughts were test only is safer than test + hcg + AI But that's just a guess...

If you don't mind smaller testicles and fertility you can go without hcg.

Or you can replace 2 weeks of TRT (every 2months) with hcg instead of taking them both together. This will lower your estrogen risk. Won't hurt to have ai on hand to use here and there if needed

That should wake your balls up every so often

 

[william12]

hcg is brilliant but not for everyone.
it will mimic lh then work like fsh and even sligtly stimulates the thyroid gland.
The main worry is about it's lack of effectiveness after a while and leydig cells desensitization after high doses in the long run, It worked great for me (small doses) then stopped but My doc thought it didn't and that this was transient!!! he has a patient on hcg for 15 years and doing great.
So I don't know for sure

 

[Theworm]

I did a few months of test E only and a few of test E + HCG and I can say that I totally feel a lot better with HCG; happier, more motivated, semen is like super thick and big loads (some girls love that); much more sex drive and I love the feeling of those 2 big balls hanging around (also some girls love big balls hitting them in the ass when sexy time comes) so to me HCG is a must

What's ur dose of hcg and do u need an AI?

 

[Alex.stmpnk]

What's ur dose of hcg and do u need an AI?

Initially my HCG was 250 IU 3 times a week and 250 mg testosterone enanthate and 1 mg Arimidex a week; my E2 was 35 pg/ml but I was having a lot of white heads in the face; so I reduced HCG to 200 IU 2 times a week with the same enanthate and Arimidex dose and I’m feeling a lot better, morning woods are even harder and last more and sex drive is crazy; so for me less HCG is better; in a couple of weeks I will get bloodworks to check my general levels with this dose

 

[Theworm]

Initially my HCG was 250 IU 3 times a week and 250 mg testosterone enanthate and 1 mg Arimidex a week; my E2 was 35 pg/ml but I was having a lot of white heads in the face; so I reduced HCG to 200 IU 2 times a week with the same enanthate and Arimidex dose and I’m feeling a lot better, morning woods are even harder and last more and sex drive is crazy; so for me less HCG is better; in a couple of weeks I will get bloodworks to check my general levels with this dose

I'm going to shoot for 100 iu hcg every 3 days and check labs. Issue is, and nobody has an answer is, what's th lowest effective dose that won't need an AI?
Other words, what's the lowest dose that still works?
If I took 100 every 3 days how would I know it's working? Just by the feel of my testicles? Lol

 

[grey]

If I took 100 every 3 days how would I know it's working? Just by the feel of my testicles? Lol

By testing your blood.

Issue is, and nobody has an answer is, what's th lowest effective dose that won't need an AI?

No one can answer this for you because it is the same as asking how much Test someone can inject without an AI, different for everyone.

 

[Theworm]

By testing your blood.



.

Testing my blood for what?
I'm asking if I injected 100 iu hcg every 3 days, how do I know it's working? There is no test that says by balls are working at 90% of normal

 

[grey]

Testing my blood for what?
I'm asking if I injected 100 iu hcg every 3 days, how do I know it's working? There is no test that says by balls are working at 90% of normal

You are kidding here right?

Test yourself for an increase in testosterone production.


100 iu e3d isn't going to be gigantic either way though.