Zottman curls...anyone with pos or neg feedback?

[Shockrock3]

Yeah I know this should prob. be in the Training Forum but seeing that there is 2 posts in the last 5 hours over there..I really need some feedback. What is your opinion on this exercise? Essentially just doing a curl and at the bottom your palm is completely facing away from you. Maybe it triggers certain fibers..anyone?

Shock

 

[Freddy]

To get big biceps how you curl is less important than how you squat.

 

[Pablo34]

Could you please elaborate?

LOL

Hey Frosty, don't bother asking. Any time someone wants to do direct bicep work, Freddy tells them to squat.

 

[Freddy]

If you want the fastest way to add an inch to your biceps, you have to add 10-20 pounds of lean body mass.

The fastest way to add 10-20 pounds of lean body mass is to squat.

EDIT: Also, why is it that you guys will stay up late at night obsessing about how you should curl, and you won't even give two thoughts to squatting?

 

[Chip Bronson]

i agree completely with freddy obviously. aside from that i'd like to say that on the few occasions that i've used the movement over the years, it's always felt awkward, uncomfortable and, at heavier weights, outright dangerous. there are no magic exercises for the arms. at least it's not the zottman curl.

 

[Grizzly]

Sure there is, Chip. The magic exercise is fork curls and spoon pressdowns.

Also, I find it odd in this day of overtraining paranoia that people will scream and yell if you mention doing 3-4 exercises/muscle group and, yet, they all press, pull, shrug, dead, chin, etc. which hammers the shit out of the biceps/triceps giving them 25 sets apiece during the week AND THEN they'll still say to go in there and hammer your arms with 8 sets for each side.

Something tells me my punctuation and even coherence went right out the window in that diatribe. Point is, in a lot of cases, LESS concentration on the arms is the ticket to growth. Prior to my new 1X/wk workout, I hadn't trained my arms in over a year and they were still at 19.5". Unfortunately, they have shrunk a bit in the last 3 months, but who gives a fuck? They're still strong enough to pull a dude's hips in as I go for the slam.

 

[Pablo34]

Sure there is, Chip. The magic exercise is fork curls and spoon pressdowns.

Also, I find it odd in this day of overtraining paranoia that people will scream and yell if you mention doing 3-4 exercises/muscle group and, yet, they all press, pull, shrug, dead, chin, etc. which hammers the shit out of the biceps/triceps giving them 25 sets apiece during the week AND THEN they'll still say to go in there and hammer your arms with 8 sets for each side.

Something tells me my punctuation and even coherence went right out the window in that diatribe. Point is, in a lot of cases, LESS concentration on the arms is the ticket to growth. Prior to my new 1X/wk workout, I hadn't trained my arms in over a year and they were still at 19.5". Unfortunately, they have shrunk a bit in the last 3 months, but who gives a fuck? They're still strong enough to pull a dude's hips in as I go for the slam.

Hey Grizz,

How's your MMA training been going?

 

[Chip Bronson]

i hear where you're coming from grizz. to be honest, some of the best gains i've seen in my arm measurement has been over the past few months while doing hst. the weighted pullups and weighted dips, among the other compound movements, has really helped to pack some size into the arms with minimal direct arm work. i've put 3/4" on my arms over the last 7-8 months, all while improving their shape and quality. just wish they'd grow faster. don't we all?

 

[Shockrock3]

I'm just looking for a little change..something to throw in different. I too notice a difference in arm size/shape after reducing bi work...6 intense sets total, sometimes 5. I might try cheating barbell & Zottmans.....does make sense Chip that with heavier weights the reverse curl part of the exercise could put abnormal stress on the brach. I am going to give them a whirl tommorow..

Shock

 

[Grizzly]

Hey Grizz,

How's your MMA training been going?

I am beat the fuck up! I've got bruises all over, one of my eyes is almost always blacked up, my ear is going and I caught an elbow in the eye wednesday so it's cut. All in all, though, it's going well. LOL The guys I train with are all good and I have no problem handling any of them, which means that I, too, must be damn good. I could argue for bigger partners, but that's the shitty part of being a heavy, heavyweight. There just aren't many people my size.

The only negative is the lack of lifting. I was looking in the mirror today(ok, so I was dancing in the mirror) and I realized that I'm starting to look like Tito Ortiz: big head, big shoulders, traps, neck, upper back and muscular, yet small, arms. Albeit I'm fatter than Tito. I guess it makes sense though as we participate in the same sport and it may just be the "fighter physique".

 

[Chip Bronson]

hey didn't arnold build his cannons from 13" to 19" using the cheat curl and zottmans exclusively?... lol... just read this in some mag.

i don't think the zottmans with heavy weight will put abnormal stress on the brachialis but you may have some problem with the forearm extensors as they will have to fight with that extra weight on the eccentric portion of the movement. at least that's where i feel it. try some heavy incline curls and incline hammers for a fresh feel to your bi's.

I'm just looking for a little change..something to throw in different. I too notice a difference in arm size/shape after reducing bi work...6 intense sets total, sometimes 5. I might try cheating barbell & Zottmans.....does make sense Chip that with heavier weights the reverse curl part of the exercise could put abnormal stress on the brach. I am going to give them a whirl tommorow..

Shock

 

[Shockrock3]

hey didn't arnold build his cannons from 13" to 19" using the cheat curl and zottmans exclusively?... lol... just read this in some mag.

i don't think the zottmans with heavy weight will put abnormal stress on the brachialis but you may have some problem with the forearm extensors as they will have to fight with that extra weight on the eccentric portion of the movement. at least that's where i feel it. try some heavy incline curls and incline hammers for a fresh feel to your bi's.

LOL Busted! Yup...read it quickly in MuscleMag, ha ha it sounded different..I always up for change in my routines. I tried it today...nothing special but if you do it correct you def. feel it on the top of your forearm like you said. I'll give it another try next week..I always give something a second chance. Incline hammers, yes, at heavy weight are gut wrenching. My personal favorite is barbell preachers....literally feels like you bi is gonna explode.

Shock

 

[Pablo34]

I am beat the fuck up! I've got bruises all over, one of my eyes is almost always blacked up, my ear is going and I caught an elbow in the eye wednesday so it's cut. All in all, though, it's going well. LOL The guys I train with are all good and I have no problem handling any of them, which means that I, too, must be damn good. I could argue for bigger partners, but that's the shitty part of being a heavy, heavyweight. There just aren't many people my size.

The only negative is the lack of lifting. I was looking in the mirror today(ok, so I was dancing in the mirror) and I realized that I'm starting to look like Tito Ortiz: big head, big shoulders, traps, neck, upper back and muscular, yet small, arms. Albeit I'm fatter than Tito. I guess it makes sense though as we participate in the same sport and it may just be the "fighter physique".

Grizz,

I need to start using you as inspiration. Here I am, always tired because I stand 40 hours per week at my 2 jobs, and am missing days in the gym right and left...and then here you are, busting your ass in the toughest sport in the world, and still getting in to the gym and hitting it hard. I'm either gonna have to 'up' the ephedrine or take a step back and reorganize my training and nutrition.

 

[Bob Smith]

Sure there is, Chip. The magic exercise is fork curls and spoon pressdowns.

BWAHAHA! Thats great!

Freddy is right on the mark with this one. Direct bicep work is less important for gaining bicep size, than is increasing overall bodyweight. 12-20 pounds is about the range most people have to gain overall in order to see an inch gain on their arms. And whats the most efficient way to add that much weight, squat and DL.

 

[Freddy]

I really don't understand the negative reaction I get to that kind of advice sometimes.

I'm not one of the really radical guys who advocates no "direct" bicep training...like JS, or Grizz.

Its not that I think you need arm training, you don't necessarily need it if you're doing everything else correctly. JS has 23" arms and he hasn't curled in a decade. That doesn't happen by accident.

If you want to train biceps, train biceps. I'm not gunna argue. Hell, I do a few sets here and there.

What really doesn't make sense are these guys who have RIDICULOUSLY sophisticated and overly complicated arm training routines...and yet they squat or deadlift once a week TOPS.

Sillyness.

 

[Grizzly]

I only advocate it for struggling bodybuilders, if that makes any sense. I take a "mirror image" approach. In most cases dudes are spending waayy too much time "sculpting" so I tell them that they need to forget all that hogwash and just lift heavy things multiple times.

With that said, I was carrying some boxes at work and I decided to curl them. I think I might have to start curling again because that felt really good.

edit- uhhhh, if my brain starts working later I'll make this post make sense.

 

[Chip Bronson]

freddy i respect your advice and opinions as you already know but i'm going to play a little devil's advocate here. what about the difference in muscle quality or appearance, if you will, between those who do direct arm work vs. those who don't? you say js has 23" arms but how do they compare, visually, to lee priest's which are about 20". and i say visually because a huge component in bodybuilding is a visual effect of developing the muscle group.

it doesn't seem that the arm development of the 'no direct work arm work' camp would lag behind that of the other group. i would think the latter group would have arms that were more defined, separated (clear deliniation in the triceps heads, clearly deliniated brachialis, biceps peak, vascularity, etc....) and, well, more muscular-looking than in the former group. to me these factors are more important than just sheer size or mass. what do you guys think?

 

[Sir Lifts-a-Lot]

They are great for stretching out the forearm muscles and really helping them grow.

 

[Grizzly]

Interesting plan, frosty. I can't say I'm all too familiar with bands and chains(though I think I get the gist of them) but it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with your plan. If your inclined to believe that TUT is a great principle, then it should work beautifully.

 

[Bob Smith]

Well, I guess TUT would be a factor, but the main reason I chose to use bands is because most isolation lifts aren't very effective through a good portion of the ROM.

Then use non-isolation movements, ie barbell curls over preacher curls.

Chippy, I think the difference between JS's 23 inch cannons and Priests 20 inchers is level of bodyfat and is not related to direct stimulation. If JS was ever so inclined to get shredded (dont hold your breath), then His arms would be plenty spectacular.