Barbell squat-press aka thrusters - slow or fast?

[tenpoundsleft]

First of all, I don't do crossfit, but I like compound moves.

Regarding the squat-press move, for best muscle building results, what's the preferred approach?

Crossfitters, as always it seems, put a premium on tempo, and go insanely fast up and down, doesn't look optimal for muscle engagement, and seems to be inviting injuries.

My approach is to do a clean squat, fairly quick up to standing, THEN a clean press overhead.
Then I lower the bar back onto my shoulders, and THEN go one-two-three down into the squat.
In other words, it's a two-step move for me.

I'm wondering if it would be more effective to go with a more explosive approach, launch the press portion as I'm just about standing up, use that momentum, then lower down onto shoulders as I'm also goin into the squat. That should let me use a heavier weight, which is good, but I hate to do things that feel like I'm sacrificing form.

Thoughts on this?

 

[T_verde77]

First of all, I don't do crossfit, but I like compound moves.

Regarding the squat-press move, for best muscle building results, what's the preferred approach?

Crossfitters, as always it seems, put a premium on tempo, and go insanely fast up and down, doesn't look optimal for muscle engagement, and seems to be inviting injuries.

My approach is to do a clean squat, fairly quick up to standing, THEN a clean press overhead.
Then I lower the bar back onto my shoulders, and THEN go one-two-three down into the squat.
In other words, it's a two-step move for me.

I'm wondering if it would be more effective to go with a more explosive approach, launch the press portion as I'm just about standing up, use that momentum, then lower down onto shoulders as I'm also goin into the squat. That should let me use a heavier weight, which is good, but I hate to do things that feel like I'm sacrificing form.

Thoughts on this?

I have pulled my lumbar musscle twice now at work so I really have to watch it in the gym. snapping your joints like they do on those exercises puts stremendous strain on the joint and tendons. Yes exploding out of compound workouts will definitely give u a great workout but eventually u will get an injury. Yes go for a nice steady solid squeeze and for those types of exercises try to slow it down right before you get to your joint locking, this really goes for every exercise. Yes u can lock your joints, I usually don't anymore, but when u do don't do it at full fucking speed.

and for the over head raise..I don't see the point unless it is just something u absolutely love and do competitive cross fit.
anything overhead puts tons of stress on your shoulders and impinges all the stuff inside the shoulder joint, for shoulders any kind of side raises and front raises are just a great. my shoulder put out me out of the gym for a dam year.

 

[T_verde77]

And the best advice anyone can ever get is don't go heavy all the time. switch the reps up every other workout. 6-12 one week than 10-20 the next. yea u might now grow as fast at the guy next to u going heavy every day but u will be able to workout later in life and have less injuries. Just my 2 sense. And never scrifice form, that shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. sorry I always get s little worked up about talking about injuries, I just hate when they keep me out of the gym.

 

[tenpoundsleft]

@T_verde77 - thanks - I'm 52, great shoulder health, only weak area is lower back, so I prefer lower weights and going slower instead. Avoiding injuries is a high priority.

And I really don't like bad form, so what you're saying rings true.

I still like the overhead, zero issues doing that, and it feels like useful strength, lifting heavy stuff above your head.

 

[romaleos]

What are you training for? What are your expected results from compound lifts in relation to your fitness goals?

 

[tenpoundsleft]

What are you training for? What are your expected results from compound lifts in relation to your fitness goals?

Maybe I should have clarified that.

I'm primarily focused on core strength, big movements, gradually building size along the way. Lower back prevents deadlifting, I've tried, but even modest weights have me in pain for days.

About size goals, I'm around 204lbs now, at 6' even, maybe 14%. Trying to get to 210-220 by end of March, then cut down to 10% and see how much I can retain. And I know I have to work on legs to gain, but I'm trying to avoid leg machines.

 

[turcao]

I wouldn't combine them, do squats and push press

 

[tenpoundsleft]

I wouldn't combine them, do squats and push press

Yeah, that'd let me maximize each weight, but it also slows down progress through the gym. The twofer is gone. Hmmmm. But I see your point.

 

[Perrin Aybara]

I wouldn't combine them, do squats and push press

This.

I don't see a benefit to combining them, I'd just do them separately and give each the attention they deserve.

 

[romaleos]

Thanks for the clarification.

Since your goal is to gain weight I would stay on the side of heavy load and low volume(reps). Light weight will help you to do more reps which becomes more conditioning work than strength work. Compound movement none the less so you can still make gains with a light weight as well not sacrifice form or risk injury. But for your goals, training for strength and size would be more effective. Heavy with less reps.

Now slow or fast is a misnomer in weighted athletic movement. Everything should be fast as you are recruiting and developing more type 2 fast twitch muscle fibers which are the primary used for short burst phosphogenic movement. Moving slow will develop type 1 fibers that are more geared to oxidative endurance movement. How many type 1 vs type 2 is genetically unique to each individual. Which explains how a smaller athlete can lift more than a heavier athlete of the same training age.

A movement might look slow because of the load especially during maximal lifts 85%+1rm. But that athlete is recruiting type 2 fibers if they are exploding the movement. Think of bar speed as the determining factor in explosive maximal movement. Also know that fast and slow pertains to the concentric portion of the lift. You can still incorporate slow into explosive training during eccentric movement. Never slow on concentric movement unless you are purposefully training to be a slow athlete or maybe bodybuilder during only isolation excercises.

As for form, what ever floats your boat. Both methods are fine. The first one is more upper body development and the second is more hip dominant good for posterior chain and quad development. How heavy I detailed above.

Good luck!

 

[Oregongearhead]

If your talking about strictly back squats I like slow going down , then explode out of the hole on my way up . Only way I know ....ATG !

I would skip the pressing movement and save it for shoulder press days ...

 

[tenpoundsleft]

Thanks for the clarification.

Since your goal is to gain weight I would stay on the side of heavy load and low volume(reps). Light weight will help you to do more reps which becomes more conditioning work than strength work. Compound movement none the less so you can still make gains with a light weight as well not sacrifice form or risk injury. But for your goals, training for strength and size would be more effective. Heavy with less reps.

Now slow or fast is a misnomer in weighted athletic movement. Everything should be fast as you are recruiting and developing more type 2 fast twitch muscle fibers which are the primary used for short burst phosphogenic movement. Moving slow will develop type 1 fibers that are more geared to oxidative endurance movement. How many type 1 vs type 2 is genetically unique to each individual. Which explains how a smaller athlete can lift more than a heavier athlete of the same training age.

A movement might look slow because of the load especially during maximal lifts 85%+1rm. But that athlete is recruiting type 2 fibers if they are exploding the movement. Think of bar speed as the determining factor in explosive maximal movement. Also know that fast and slow pertains to the concentric portion of the lift. You can still incorporate slow into explosive training during eccentric movement. Never slow on concentric movement unless you are purposefully training to be a slow athlete or maybe bodybuilder during only isolation excercises.

As for form, what ever floats your boat. Both methods are fine. The first one is more upper body development and the second is more hip dominant good for posterior chain and quad development. How heavy I detailed above.

Good luck!

Wish I could double-like this, thoughtful and detailed reply, many thanks!

 

[Docd187123]

Maybe I should have clarified that.

I'm primarily focused on core strength, big movements, gradually building size along the way. Lower back prevents deadlifting, I've tried, but even modest weights have me in pain for days.

About size goals, I'm around 204lbs now, at 6' even, maybe 14%. Trying to get to 210-220 by end of March, then cut down to 10% and see how much I can retain. And I know I have to work on legs to gain, but I'm trying to avoid leg machines.

Have you tried sumo deadlifts? You still get a good pulling movement in and bc if the more upright torso it places less stress on the low back.

 

[tenpoundsleft]

Have you tried sumo deadlifts? You still get a good pulling movement in and bc if the more upright torso it places less stress on the low back.

No, I haven't but I'll give it a shot, it sound like it would be less likely to aggravate things. Thanks!

 

[Docd187123]

No, I haven't but I'll give it a shot, it sound like it would be less likely to aggravate things. Thanks!

Yea. It uses the musculature a little differently than conventional deads do bc of the different movement pattern but it'll still allow you to pull off the floor, work a lot of your posterior muscles, and it can help progress your squat as well.

I've been having low back issues for several months now and have started doing sumo pulls here and there. Not sure if I'll switch over completely, use them for training and compete With conventional, or somewhere in between.

 

[romaleos]

No, I haven't but I'll give it a shot, it sound like it would be less likely to aggravate things. Thanks!

If you have access to a reverse hyper, I highly recommend using it as much as possible. It has done wonders for my athletes with preconditioning low back issues.

 

[tenpoundsleft]

Yea. It uses the musculature a little differently than conventional deads do bc of the different movement pattern but it'll still allow you to pull off the floor, work a lot of your posterior muscles, and it can help progress your squat as well.

I've been having low back issues for several months now and have started doing sumo pulls here and there. Not sure if I'll switch over completely, use them for training and compete With conventional, or somewhere in between.

It reminds me of some forms of karate I practiced years ago, a form that relies on really wide and low stance and leg work.

 

[T_verde77]

Have not seen that machine before and I have been to about a hundred gyms. That machine looks amazing. I need to find one

 

[romaleos]

Have not seen that machine before and I have been to about a hundred gyms. That machine looks amazing. I need to find one

You won't find it at a 24hr or planet fitness globo gym. You need to find a legit powerlifting gym or CrossFit box.

Only recently have d1 ncaa programs have incorporated it into their setups as well as some chiropractic clinics. I just bought one for myself takes up a hell a lot of real estate in the home gym though.

 

[Docd187123]

If you have access to a reverse hyper, I highly recommend using it as much as possible. It has done wonders for my athletes with preconditioning low back issues.

Reverse hypers kill my low back and I mean that in a bad way. On the eccentric it literally feels like my low back is being pulled apart in either direction but I am not 100% right now either. I would recommend for almost everyone to incorporate them into their training. I can get by doing them but only if I do the eccentric very slowly. Another good one, and one I like more, is the GHR.