Critique?

[NovaFlex]

I finally sat down and wrote out my plan, trying to get the numbers straight.

I ran Wk 1 already, and to me it 'felt' good but a little light, so i added more volume (1 more set per) . i dont know if the numbers are right for growth. My methodology is to keep my compounds heavy while looking for hypertrophy on the accessories.

85% of 1rm for for compounds, 75% for accessories

Wk 1.

-PUSH
Bench Press 5x5
DB Shoulder Press 5x10
Tricep Pushdown 5x10
Cable x over 5x10
Tri Ext on machine 5x10
OHP 5x5
Weighted crunches to failure x3

-Pull
DeadLift 5x5
Seated Hammer Curl 5x10
DB Lat Pull 5x5 (i like these heavy)
Seated Row on machine 5x10
Preacher curls 5x10
seated DB Lat raise 4x10
Bent over BB Row 5x8-10
Shrugs 5x10
hyperextension 5x10

-Legs
Back Squat 5x5
Leg Press on Sled 5x10
extensions 5x10
SLDL 4x10
Leg Raises 5x8-10
Calf raises on Smith machine 4x10
weighted crunch to failure x3


WK 2.

-Push
DB Bench Press 5x5
Skull crushers 4x10
Incline DB Press 4x10
Incline Chest Fly 4x12
Tricep extension 5x10
OHP 5x10
Dips 5x5
CWeighted crunch to failure x3

-Pull
Deadlift 5x5
Cable Curl 5x10
-LAT EXERCISE
Wide Grip BO Row to Chest 5x8
BB Curl 5x8
Lat Pulldown 5x8-10
Underhand BB row 5x10
Shrugs 5x10
hyperextension 5x10

-Legs
Front Squat 5x5
Leg Press 5x10
Good Mornings 4x10
Leg Ext. 5x10
Leg raises 4x8-10
Calf raises 4x10
Weighted crunch to failure x3


haven't tried Wk 2 yet. Spent some time trying to get some synergy between the workouts. on paper they look decent to me, but all critique is welcome. I want to add another chest exercise on push days. Just not sure what

 

[weighted chinup]

Long post below.

[1] I do not recommend changing lift selection week to week like you have outlined, either train them concurrently or reduce lift selection and increase specificity (I recommend this approach). You are going an entire week where some lifts aren't being trained at all until the next week (although not all, like deadlifts and ohp, those are trained each week which is good).In a single month, BB Bench will only be trained 3 times or something like that. I'm not a fan of going periods of time where lifts go untrained. If you want a more non-concurrent approach to allow for a larger lift selection (I don't recommend this) it would always be better to do a maintenance amount of work to make sure a certain quality doesn't go untrained unless you have a specific reason for laying off a lift for an entire week. But you will be better off if you reduce the lift selection and increase specificity.

[2] How many times a week are you training? I would recommend a schedule of P/P/L/P/P/L/REST so you can get more frequency (2x a week).

[3] 5x10 @ 75% for accessory lifts and isolation is a lot of single session volume for accessory work. Be mindful of this, and if needed make adjustments. Personally I would opt out of strict percentages for accessory lifts and simply use a prescribed rep range (ie 3x10 or higher or even lower depending on lift) and use a weight you can do for the prescribed number of reps per set with 1-2 reps in the tank short of failing or grindage. That is how I personally handle accessory work.

[4] Hypertrophy is not exclusive to certain intensities or rep ranges, some are just more time efficient, and IME a 5RM with that much single session volume for the lifts beings worked at that intensity would fall into the range of the so called 'hypertrophy' rep range simply because moderate rate of protein degradation + moderate amount of repetitions performed = large amount of protein degraded / hypertrophy (Zatsiorksy). A 10RM might be a bit more time efficient but you will still be getting plenty of size gains with that amount of volume relative to that intensity (85%) from your compounds. This has been my experience as well.

[5] Reduce overall exercise selection ( don't alternate week to week) and reduce amount of accessory work performed.

This is what my lift selection looked like when I ran PPL.

Weighted Dips, Incline Barbell Bench
Dumbbell Lateral Raise, Tricep Pressdown

Weighted Chinup, Weighted Pullup
Seated Row, Reverse peck deck fly, lying cable curl

Front Squat, RDL
Hypers, Leg ext

everything got hit 2x a week.

That's just an example, I'm not recommending that, but that should give you an idea of what an ideal amount of specificity in lift selection might look like for an intermediate lifter. Some can even benefit from increased specificity but bodybuilding oriented lifters can see some benefits from some variety in lift selection (but not to the extent the fitness mainstream has bullshitted everyone into believing!)

[6] What is your progression model? Are you able to make steady progress using this model when you are off cycle? I don't recommend linear progression for non beginners, and even though gear might make it work I don't believe it to be optimal. I would periodize training in order to make steady progress if you're at the intermediate stage.

I ran a PPL split for a long time and dropped it some time ago.

I no longer see the benefit of body part splits and think higher frequency is even better for hypertrophy and that structuring training days around movements instead of body parts will often prove to be more successful for a lifter. I'd be happy to discuss this last point more if you're interested but the rest of the post pretty much covers all my thoughts on P/P/L and how to structure it.

 

[NovaFlex]

Thanks for the detailed response, @weighted chinup, I really appreciate it.

I'll try to respond by the numbers that you outlined.

1. My biggest rationale for switching between BB bench and DB bench was to strengthen stabilizers with the DB's then try going heavier on the next BB day. Same for Front / Back squats. Is there a better way to do this? Or just stick with BB bench / Back squat / good form?

However, I understand what you're saying about lift selection and keeping it simple, rather than having a ton of different lifts. I suppose I'm under the mindstate of working the muscle from 'every angle'. As you said, mainstream fitness, etc.


2. I'm doing exactly what you said there.. PPL / PPL / Rest. I'm only on my third week of PPL.


3. After my workout today, I see exactly what you're saying about this.. 5x10 @ 75% was way too much when trying to complete such a large volume at that intensity. I didn't realize how difficult that would actually be. Your suggestion seems more viable.


4. I didn't know that about hypertrophy... I figured it needed to be more reps to allow blood flow, etc. That's my ignorance in not really KNOWING how it works, only having read about it and how it's applied.

are you suggesting to lighten up the compounds to a 10rpm instead of 5x5? Or are you referring to the relativity of the lighter accessories to the 5x5 of the compounds? Sorry, my brain's not working.


5. I understand the thought process of not alternating week by week. I gotta try to get my head out of the thought process of hitting the muscle from 'every angle'.


6. As far as progression, I try to add reps every workout to my compounds. When I reach 10 reps, I up the weight on that movement. It's seemed to be working so far, is there a more optimal way to go about this?

As far as cycle, I'm on a year-round TRT dose. I haven't blasted yet, because my BF% isn't low enough. I'm cutting, but still gaining muscle. Personally, I'd say I'm just reaching the precipice of intermediate, from novice. I've been lifting for about 7 months. My working numbers for 5x5's with compounds are: 200 Bench, 355 DL, 265 SQ.



Before finding out about PPL, I was running an upper / lower split. It helped me to get used to everything, but I felt I needed something more advanced.. That's when I found PPL. I'm definitely open to any advice / discussion that would lead in a better direction or further my progress.

Again, thanks for taking the time and helping, weighted. It's really appreciated.

 

[weighted chinup]

1. My biggest rationale for switching between BB bench and DB bench was to strengthen stabilizers with the DB's then try going heavier on the next BB day. Same for Front / Back squats. Is there a better way to do this? Or just stick with BB bench / Back squat / good form?

However, I understand what you're saying about lift selection and keeping it simple, rather than having a ton of different lifts. I suppose I'm under the mindstate of working the muscle from 'every angle'. As you said, mainstream fitness, etc.

Yes, the better approach would be to stick to a more specific lift selection, I believe this to be superior for bodybuilding oriented lifters.

I briefly mentioned it earlier, but changing lifts and absurd amounts of variety in lift selection has become so common that it's really unfortunate because If anything it just inhibits progress.

Look at it this way, which of these two options is more likely to facilitate more dramatic changes in a lifters physique:

(a) getting VERY good at a smaller number of lifts

(b) getting okay/decent at a bunch of different lifts

Option A will prove to be superior if dramatic changes in physique is what the lifter is after.

4. I didn't know that about hypertrophy... I figured it needed to be more reps to allow blood flow, etc. That's my ignorance in not really KNOWING how it works, only having read about it and how it's applied.

are you suggesting to lighten up the compounds to a 10rpm instead of 5x5? Or are you referring to the relativity of the lighter accessories to the 5x5 of the compounds? Sorry, my brain's not working.

No, it's not necessary to lighten the intensity you're training with unless you want to for whatever reason.

That comment was just referring to the fact that any intensity can promote size gains as long as total volume is adjusted for that particular intensity, it's just that some intensities are less time consuming to hit your total tonnage goal with, but higher intensities do have great benefits for performance.

A 5RM on your compounds is fine, 10RM might be more 'efficient' but with the amount of work you're doing with the 5RM lifts I doubt it will be much difference for hypertrophy.

I have a chart saved somewhere that demonstrates this (it's posted in the thread I linked at the bottom of this post).

Before finding out about PPL, I was running an upper / lower split. It helped me to get used to everything, but I felt I needed something more advanced.. That's when I found PPL. I'm definitely open to any advice / discussion that would lead in a better direction or further my progress.

I've posted quite a bit about PPL in the past but I think there are more enjoyable (which will lead to more success in many cases) ways of structuring workouts for bodybuilding oriented lifters.

This is what my current preference for bb'ing routines for inter/advanced guys looks like if you're curious as to what these preferences might look like in practice:

Dual-factor Bodybuilding routine for Intermediate and Advanced lifters | MESO-Rx Forum

Just an example of how workouts can be structured around movements for bb'ing oriented lifters and how programming techniques often used by strength athletes and performance oriented lifters can be used to make steady progress on a bodybuilding program.

Of course similar methodologies can be applied to a PPL program.

 

[NovaFlex]

I never thought about it that way... I like the logic behind mastering a short selection of lifts. I'm going to apply that.

I read your routine the other day. I like the thought behind it and the lift selection, but wasn't sure if I'd be able to follow it to a T, as far as intensity is concerned.

If I were to continue with PPL for a couple months, would this be a better selection?:


PUSH
Bench Press 5x5
Tricep Push down 5x10
Incline DB Press 5x10
Incline DB Fly 5x15
OHP 5x5

PULL
DeadLift 5x5
BB Curl 5x8-10
DB Lat Pull 5x8-10
Bent over BB Row 5x5
Shrugs 5x15

LEGS
Squats 5x5
Leg Press 4x10
Calf Raise On Smith 4x10
Leg Raise 5x10

I cut it down to just lifts I like that are really effective.

 

[Perrin Aybara]

One of my biggest complaints with PPL is juggling squat and deadlift so fatigue from one doesn't affect the other. Doing back squats the day after deadlift could be a major concern if you're prone to a lot of lower back DOMS. This can be solved two ways in my opinion. Doing deadlift the same day as legs or doing the order of days backwards. I find doing deadlift the day after squats much more manageable as vice versa.

Another being that doing all pushes, pulls or leg stuff leaves you fatigued at the end, neglecting the later exercises on that day. I guess the solution here is changing the order sometimes. Like starting with OHP rather than bench press.

As far as what you just posted above I'd do OHP right after bench as it's more important than that other stuff. I'd scrap incline dumbbell in this situation because it's not hitting anything bench and OHP aren't getting already. Lying triceps extensions or dips rather than push downs. Pull day I'd scrap lat pulls in favor of chin ups and do them second. I'd personally do front squat over leg press, but I understand that's not for everyone. Also, I'd drop deadlift volume to 3x5. It doesn't require as many sets as bench or squat to progress in my opinion.

 

[NovaFlex]

I experienced that today @Perrin Aybara . Today I did legs, and my glutes all up my lower back just weren't feeling it on squats.

And yeah, the only order I follow in the routine is to do the compounds first. The way they're written isnt necessarily the order they get done. I definitely agree with you there, about the fatigue.

Thanks for the lift suggestions, man. I'm shit with pull ups right now, would it be better to do pull downs on a machine or assisted pull ups?

As for front squats, I added them to the routine up there before having ever tried them heavy.. I did a set today and thought I was gonna die, haha.

 

[Perrin Aybara]

I think assisted pull ups would be better. If you have access to a squat rack with adjustable safeties and a pull up bar and resistance bands run a band across the safeties and stand on it for pull ups. More like the real thing than the machine. Once you train them you'll likely come along quickly with them.

 

[NovaFlex]

I'd have to use the machine, since ninny gym doesn't have that. It's all good though.

did push today with the modifications and felt I actually got a better workout by focusing all my energy on a handful of lifts.

Bench 5x5
OHP 5x5
tricep cable ext. 4x10
cable x overs 5x10

threw in shrugs at the end cuz i wanna grow them traps.
and leg lifts for core work.

i felt I could do heavier weight because i want lifting conservatively to reserve energy.

thanks @weighted chinup for the suggestion of cutting the number of lifts