Tren gyno mechanism? Progesterone?

[NFRCR]

Hi!

Strange things are happening.

I get gyno every time when I run Tren with high Test - let's say Test 600mg/week and Tren 500mg/week.

E2 itself is not a problem as I take Exemestane 25mg/day - this puts my E2 in such a Test dose around 120 pmol/L or 32 pg/mL.

On Test alone that kind of E2 does not cause any gyno problems. When I add Tren, the E2 becomes a problem somehow. That said, I take Pramipexole 1.04mg/day. It's a long release version of Pramipexole. I take 0.52mg in the morning and 0.52mg before sleep. Every time I go to do a blood Test I skip the morning dose to see how the Pramipexole works over time and every time my Prolactin has been very low. So Prolactin is not causing these gyno issues.

However, I have high Progesterone on Tren - 10nmol/L. I also have quite high Progesterone without Tren - around 4-5nmol/L. I have heard that Progesterone will amplify the effect of E2 - could this be the cause? If so, will it amplify it enough to make Tamoxifen not prevent the gyno?

Also, how does one lower Progesterone? I have researched and can't find much.

Thanks!

 

[Docd187123]

Yes progesterone can amplify the effect of E2. No, Tamoxifen and raloxifene will still do their job. You can lower progesterone with a SPRM or dropping the compound elevating progesterone. I wouldn't suggest using the former on your own without a doctor's advice.


Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. It is of note, however, that this steroid displays significant binding affinity for the progesterone receptor (slightly stronger than progesterone itself ).609 610 The side effects associated with progesterone are similar to those of estrogen, including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production and enhanced rate of fat storage. Progestins also augment the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones, such that gynecomastia might even occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels. The use of an anti-estrogen, which inhibits the estrogenic component of this disorder, is often sufficient to mitigate gynecomastia caused by progestational anabolic/androgenic steroids. Note that progestational side effects are more common when trenbolone is being taken with other aromatizable steroids.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

 

[RodgerThat]

Similar issue bud, I'm finding 30mg of rolax Ed has you covered in this regard. Could use 10mg of nolva in place but I find rolax does the job better for gyno prevention and removal and isn't as bad for our body as long term nolva is. Just my .02 not backed up by fancy smashy like docs post

 

[Ozzy619]

Yes progesterone can amplify the effect of E2. No, Tamoxifen and raloxifene will still do their job. You can lower progesterone with a SPRM or dropping the compound elevating progesterone. I wouldn't suggest using the former on your own without a doctor's advice.


Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. It is of note, however, that this steroid displays significant binding affinity for the progesterone receptor (slightly stronger than progesterone itself ).609 610 The side effects associated with progesterone are similar to those of estrogen, including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production and enhanced rate of fat storage. Progestins also augment the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones, such that gynecomastia might even occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels. The use of an anti-estrogen, which inhibits the estrogenic component of this disorder, is often sufficient to mitigate gynecomastia caused by progestational anabolic/androgenic steroids. Note that progestational side effects are more common when trenbolone is being taken with other aromatizable steroids.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Thank you for posting a quality, informed post. This is why I love Meso.

 

[ArchimedesLever]

Hi!

Strange things are happening.

I get gyno every time when I run Tren with high Test - let's say Test 600mg/week and Tren 500mg/week.

E2 itself is not a problem as I take Exemestane 25mg/day - this puts my E2 in such a Test dose around 120 pmol/L or 32 pg/mL.

On Test alone that kind of E2 does not cause any gyno problems. When I add Tren, the E2 becomes a problem somehow. That said, I take Pramipexole 1.04mg/day. It's a long release version of Pramipexole. I take 0.52mg in the morning and 0.52mg before sleep. Every time I go to do a blood Test I skip the morning dose to see how the Pramipexole works over time and every time my Prolactin has been very low. So Prolactin is not causing these gyno issues.

However, I have high Progesterone on Tren - 10nmol/L. I also have quite high Progesterone without Tren - around 4-5nmol/L. I have heard that Progesterone will amplify the effect of E2 - could this be the cause? If so, will it amplify it enough to make Tamoxifen not prevent the gyno?

Also, how does one lower Progesterone? I have researched and can't find much.

Thanks!

Well being that tren is a 19-NOR the use of Tamoxifen would serve to INCREASE the estrogenic side effects.

Are you currently dosing tamoxifen while on cycle?

If so I am certain dropping it will alleviate your symptoms.

 

[RodgerThat]

Well being that tren is a 19-NOR the use of Tamoxifen would serve to INCREASE the estrogenic side effects.

Are you currently dosing tamoxifen while on cycle?

If so I am certain dropping it will alleviate your symptoms.

Your saying dropping the thing helping him not have gyno is going to help him not have gyno... Nolva will never increase gyno effects.

 

[ArchimedesLever]

Your saying dropping the thing helping him not have gyno is going to help him not have gyno... Nolva will never increase gyno effects.

If he is taking a 19-NOR currently then absolutely 100% without question, unarguably YES drop the Nolva.

 

[Docd187123]

If he is taking a 19-NOR currently then absolutely 100% without question, unarguably YES drop the Nolva.

Wrong. Nolva's effects don't change with tren. It is still a mixed agonist/antagonist regardless.

 

[Sampei]

If he is taking a 19-NOR currently then absolutely 100% without question, unarguably YES drop the Nolva.

Bro science bullshit. Try again

 

[Spooby]

I have the exact issue right now, I've developed a bit of tissue behind the right nip and it's a little uncomfortable/painful if rubbed hard or I bump into something, etc... started taking nolva @ 20mg/d and it's slowly but surely helping it. I also dropped the tren/mast and lowered my test dose from 75/d to 50/d and I'm using anavar with it now instead. Feel much better and the tiny bit of gyno I have is not as puffy now. Been only a few days but I know it takes a month or two... gotta go buy some more nolva and see if I can grab ralox if I can get both from the same source. Thanks for that post btw @Docd187123

 

[NFRCR]

Thanks for the replies and discussion.

I indeed started Tamoxifen when the gyno appeared. Tamoxifen does not seem to make it worse in any way. It is slowly reducing it, but definitely much slower than without Tren.

I stopped the Tren, but since it was Tren-E, it will take some time to fade out. I will raise my Test dose and add Boldenone and Anavar and cure out the gyno on this cycle. And for next Tren use I will find something to control Progesterone. My first Tren cycle did not cause this even though doses were high as well, but now it has become a problem every time.

Just to be clear, if Pramipexole doesn't help here, then neither would Caber right? Nothing to do with Prolactin it seems.

Another interesting thing is that my left nipple is way more gyno prone. Zero lump in right nipple. Any idea why such difference in sensitivity?

 

[Docd187123]

Thanks for the replies and discussion.

I indeed started Tamoxifen when the gyno appeared. Tamoxifen does not seem to make it worse in any way. It is slowly reducing it, but definitely much slower than without Tren.

I stopped the Tren, but since it was Tren-E, it will take some time to fade out. I will raise my Test dose and add Boldenone and Anavar and cure out the gyno on this cycle. And for next Tren use I will find something to control Progesterone. My first Tren cycle did not cause this even though doses were high as well, but now it has become a problem every time.

Just to be clear, if Pramipexole doesn't help here, then neither would Caber right? Nothing to do with Prolactin it seems.

Another interesting thing is that my left nipple is way more gyno prone. Zero lump in right nipple. Any idea why such difference in sensitivity?

Prami and caber arent going to do anything for you.

Why increase test dose when you're already battling gyno? Any aromatizing compound will only exacerbate the issue.

Could be different receptor density in different nipples.

 

[Spooby]

Same here. no problems until this cycle, but I ran rather large doses, my right one is more sensitive than the left. None in left, got some harder tissue that formed behind the right, but it's only enough to be noticeable to me unless someone who knew what gyno is decided to stare for a minute, or pressed their finger against it. Going to grab ralox and use it @ 60mg/d till it's gone.... gonna have to use it through pct and beyond which is fine

 

[penche]

Yes progesterone can amplify the effect of E2. No, Tamoxifen and raloxifene will still do their job. You can lower progesterone with a SPRM or dropping the compound elevating progesterone. I wouldn't suggest using the former on your own without a doctor's advice.


Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. It is of note, however, that this steroid displays significant binding affinity for the progesterone receptor (slightly stronger than progesterone itself ).609 610 The side effects associated with progesterone are similar to those of estrogen, including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production and enhanced rate of fat storage. Progestins also augment the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones, such that gynecomastia might even occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels. The use of an anti-estrogen, which inhibits the estrogenic component of this disorder, is often sufficient to mitigate gynecomastia caused by progestational anabolic/androgenic steroids. Note that progestational side effects are more common when trenbolone is being taken with other aromatizable steroids.

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Thanks for the info bud. Think I will switch to Ralox in the future. However, this SPRM is new to me. Why do advise using it under a doc supervision since we use so many other ped's without. Not being a smart ass, just picking your brain. I'll read up more on it though. Thanks.

 

[Nitrust]

When I took tren with low test, I was on pharm grade nolva ed and my e2 was 25 and I still developed gyno that is still there to this day

 

[NFRCR]

Yeah, thanks a lot, Docd187123. Why Raloxifene over Tamoxifen though? I didn't see you mention the advantage but many seemingly prefer it more based on the posts. SPRM - I read that some of them are these emergency contraception pills - yeah would be strange and scary to take any of those. What about actually lowering Progesterone rather than blocking the receptors? I've read DHT and its analogues will decrease its production. However, Proviron did not lower mine much or at all. I didn't check it while taking Masteron though. I should try. Any other ways? What would be the cause for elevated Progesterone naturally anyway?

Nitrust, I also have Nolvadex straight from the pharmacy and it's effects are hindered on Tren.

I might also give Letrozole a try. Exemestane (again straight from pharmacy) does not lower my E2 very much. I mean - from 25mg/day while on Test 750mg/week one would usually expect lower E2 than 128pmol/L or 35pg/mL right?

Does SHBG have any effect on E2, does it bind it? My SHBG is naturally already low and on Tren less than 2 even. Maybe E2 is 'too free'?

Also, the lab I use for tests does not seem to mess up E2 reading when I'm on Tren. I don't see anything crazy high that would indicate messed up readings. But this seems to be true that Tren doesn't let Test bind and then there is more flowing free to aromatize.

 

[Docd187123]

Yeah, thanks a lot, Docd187123. Why Raloxifene over Tamoxifen though? I didn't see you mention the advantage but many seemingly prefer it more based on the posts. SPRM - I read that some of them are these emergency contraception pills - yeah would be strange and scary to take any of those. What about actually lowering Progesterone rather than blocking the receptors? I've read DHT and its analogues will decrease its production. However, Proviron did not lower mine much or at all. I didn't check it while taking Masteron though. I should try. Any other ways? What would be the cause for elevated Progesterone naturally anyway?

Nitrust, I also have Nolvadex straight from the pharmacy and it's effects are hindered on Tren.

I might also give Letrozole a try. Exemestane (again straight from pharmacy) does not lower my E2 very much. I mean - from 25mg/day while on Test 750mg/week one would usually expect lower E2 than 128pmol/L or 35pg/mL right?

Does SHBG have any effect on E2, does it bind it? My SHBG is naturally already low and on Tren less than 2 even. Maybe E2 is 'too free'?

Also, the lab I use for tests does not seem to mess up E2 reading when I'm on Tren. I don't see anything crazy high that would indicate messed up readings. But this seems to be true that Tren doesn't let Test bind and then there is more flowing free to aromatize.

The main study ppl refer to when saying ralox is better for gyno than tamox lacks a control group IIRC.

 

[Dizzy]

I can't add anything productive but shit this is interesting

 

[MrRippedZilla]

The main study ppl refer to when saying ralox is better for gyno than tamox lacks a control group IIRC.

I'm assuming your thinking of this one - Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia. - PubMed - NCBI

Statistically speaking, it's pretty weak evidence.
Small, retrospective cohort study....
40% of the individuals on both sides needed surgery by the end anyway...
Pubertal gyno is well known for spontaneously regressing in adolescence in the vast majority of cases - highlighting how important the lack of a control group really was...

If we were to rely on scientific evidence only, then the fact is it went toe to toe with tamox and beat it so ralox SHOULD be the better option.
However, if we are a bit more open minded (and I know me & you are) and we consider the anecdotal evidence going back 10 years or so...the picture is a little more mixed as to the superiority of one vs the other.
Not exactly a black & white case when it comes to justifying ralox over nolva when you consider the price difference IMO.

 

[Dr JIM]

Yes it's quite possible the effect of 19 Nors on aerolar ductile tissue (AKA "puffy nips") may be mediated, at least in part, thru their ability to bind as an agonist to the progesterone receptor.

(That's not to suggest the use of 19Nor anabolic agents result in SYMPTOMATIC hyperprogestetonemia, bc they DO NOT!)


But this effect should NOT be confused with GCM, which is mediated thru ESTROGEN.

You fellas chase this rat down the rabbit hole thru the use of SPRMs and you will only create more PROBLEMS.

The only option is to LOWER THE DOSE, and maintain an E-2 of around 20, but I know some foolish noob and even some vets will experiment with damn near anything, rather than lower the dose of their favored AAS.