Pec tears and benching, think about it

[Demondosage]

How many people do you know who have safely bench pressed 405+ lbs for any extended routine period of time WITHOUT PEC TEARS???

Seriously, I got.thinking about this the other day and I know more 405+ benchers with shoulder injuries and tears than I know ones without them!!!

This kid in my gym shows me his bruised pec and has his arm in a sling. He tells me he goes in for surgery the next day, then I asked him how much he was lifting when he tore it. 405. Every time I ever see him in there benching it's a slam off the chest with 405 for a few sloppily executed reps. "Yea, I tore the other side a few years ago too."

I know nobody wants to hear any sort of lecture when injured so I didn't say shit to him other than "I hope you recover quick man, sorry to hear that."

But it made me think, almost EVERY SINGLE guy I know who continued to bench heavy in low reps eventually tore his damn pec and it never looked the same again. If I talked to 10 guys right now over 35 years of age who have consistently used 405+ on the bench, I bet 8 out of those 10 guys got fucked up doing it with either a tear or a major shoulder issue

 

[Iron Vett]

I'll take time under tension over one REP maxes any day

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Alot of truth to it. Ive given flats a chance again recently but i stopped doing them entirely again due to 2 flat bench sessions in 2 weeks and 2 pec strains in a row. This time im done for good. They will have no place in my regimen ever again.

I prefer the incline barbell anyway and it doesnt bother my form or execution. Ive never even so much as pulled a muscle on the incline let alone strain it or tear it. Which is weird because the stretch is greater on the incline than the flat. Im coming up on the 405 for the incline. Last session i was within 10lb of it for a triple. And that is a routine day for me for a heavy day any way. Even on hypertrophy days i still have 1 good heavy as balls set in there. One thing i stamped out long ago was bouncing. 1 sec pause every rep regardless of weight. Intentional torque application from a dead stop. I also do 3 sec and 5 sec pause rep sessions as well. All the way down to the chest pause and back up. Maybe that helps for injury prevention as well? I still think in general incline is safer(less injury prone). At least for me that is 100% true

 

[janoshik]

Got 2 mild partial tears.

Never got issues when I practiced good form and made sure to not overtrain.

First happened during Smolov jr. at 340 lbs, second one at 360 lbs after a volume heavy cycle.



I think it would be interesting to establish how many of the injuries were caused by controllable parameters (ie ones which the lifter could modify, but neglected to do so).

 

[Ironlord]

I've had 5 minor partial tears, with a wide range of weights. I trace it all back to my first tear with 350..

It never properly healed, and I've always had crazy tightness in that shoulder, and all the way through that bicep. The tendon under the bicep into my armpit literally feels like a steel cable all the time.

I've torn 3x on that side and twice on the other, and I think the other side is because I've overcompensate for the bad side..

I've never been a bounce presser, always paused, and all tears have happened on the negative/lowering portion of the movement..

 

[Brolloks]

Same page. I don't go over 3 plates anymore. And it's not only pec tears, but also bicep insertion injuries above the armpit. It feels like a pec tear, but fucks up everything for 3 months.

 

[janoshik]

I've had 5 minor partial tears, with a wide range of weights. I trace it all back to my first tear with 350..

It never properly healed, and I've always had crazy tightness in that shoulder, and all the way through that bicep. The tendon under the bicep into my armpit literally feels like a steel cable all the time.

I've torn 3x on that side and twice on the other, and I think the other side is because I've overcompensate for the bad side..

I've never been a bounce presser, always paused, and all tears have happened on the negative/lowering portion of the movement..

Steel cable is a good description.

 

[Masters Power]

I bench heavy because I'm a powerlifter but it definitely puts an undue stress on your pecs and shoulders.

Two minor pec tears in the past 18 months. Shoulder surgery to remove multiple chips at the same time as I had a fully torn bicep tendon repaired last April.

Surgeon told me your shoulders look like a guy's who is under 200 pounds and been benching 400+ for many years. It wasn't a compliment as he meant inside not outside. With that said he is an athlete and told me "Your doing what you love and for as much damage as you've done your shoulder flexibility is much better than I would have expected."

I topped 400 at a meet when I was sub 191 pounds at 49 years old. After the shoulder surgery I hit just under 360 last year at 50+ years old and 181 pounds. Shoulder is finally fully healed now and looking to hit 380 plus in a meet this year at 181.

But your point is well taken. If you are capable of benching extremely heavy and insist on doing it whether for competition or just for sport expect injuries at some point.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

I bench heavy because I'm a powerlifter but it definitely puts an undue stress on your pecs and shoulders.

Two minor pec tears in the past 18 months. Shoulder surgery to remove multiple chips at the same time as I had a fully torn bicep tendon repaired last April.

Surgeon told me your shoulders look like a guy's who is under 200 pounds and been benching 400+ for many years. It wasn't a compliment as he meant inside not outside. With that said he is an athlete and told me "Your doing what you love and for as much damage as you've done your shoulder flexibility is much better than I would have expected."

I topped 400 at a meet when I was sub 191 pounds at 49 years old. After the shoulder surgery I hit just under 360 last year at 50+ years old and 181 pounds. Shoulder is finally fully healed now and looking to hit 380 plus in a meet this year at 181.

But your point is well taken. If you are capable of benching extremely heavy and insist on doing it whether for competition or just for sport expect injuries at some point.

I wonder if a switch to inclines over the same duration of time with heavy weight would significantly reduce or even eliminate those same injuries? My bet is they would

 

[Docd187123]

I wonder if a switch to inclines over the same duration of time with heavy weight would significantly reduce or even eliminate those same injuries? My bet is they would

They might and they might not. Depends on the anatomy of the person really but unfortunately, incline pressing is not a competitive lift for the likes of MP so the only time one could really prioritize it over flat benching if they wanted to would be during the off-season.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

They might and they might not. Depends on the anatomy of the person really but unfortunately, incline pressing is not a competitive lift for the likes of MP so the only time one could really prioritize it over flat benching if they wanted to would be during the off-season.

Right! But i believe the awkward horizontal flat position of the flat bench puts the awkward stress on the shoulder joints. I dont recall bad shoulders as a side effect of strength training in history when the OHP was the mark of upper body strength. And thats direct shoulder work! PL came along and marked the flat bench as the new upper body feat of strength and as a pretty well known bye product, bad shoulders.

 

[OldmanRob]

How many people do you know who have safely bench pressed 405+ lbs for any extended routine period of time WITHOUT PEC TEARS???

Seriously, I got.thinking about this the other day and I know more 405+ benchers with shoulder injuries and tears than I know ones without them!!!

This kid in my gym shows me his bruised pec and has his arm in a sling. He tells me he goes in for surgery the next day, then I asked him how much he was lifting when he tore it. 405. Every time I ever see him in there benching it's a slam off the chest with 405 for a few sloppily executed reps. "Yea, I tore the other side a few years ago too."

I know nobody wants to hear any sort of lecture when injured so I didn't say shit to him other than "I hope you recover quick man, sorry to hear that."

But it made me think, almost EVERY SINGLE guy I know who continued to bench heavy in low reps eventually tore his damn pec and it never looked the same again. If I talked to 10 guys right now over 35 years of age who have consistently used 405+ on the bench, I bet 8 out of those 10 guys got fucked up doing it with either a tear or a major shoulder issue

I used to bench heavy, 405 is my best ever max. It was kind of sloppy so I claim 385 as my best true max.

I also use to do seated military presses ata very heavy weight.

Got to the point of lots if pain for long periods of time. It still hurts and limits my exercises.

Never tore a pic but have had nightmares about it though.

From my understanding a high percentage of per tears happen at lower weights.

I regularly went up to 365, 385 on heavy days. I know it's not 405 but i weighed between 215 to 220 back in those days.

 

[bigdeadweight]

I have a different question on the same subject. For years I have heard flat with a bar will give a higher risk of tears etc, so for flat always use dumbells, and for bar always use a slight incline and then you are much safer. Does anyone that has high lifts have any experience to back this up or bust the myth?

 

[Masters Power]

I wonder if a switch to inclines over the same duration of time with heavy weight would significantly reduce or even eliminate those same injuries? My bet is they would

Being smarter would have prevented the pec tears in my case. I strained my right pec while about 6 weeks out from a meet in June of 2016. Strained my right pec two weeks later after altering my grip to try to ease the stress on my left pec. Somehow managed to hit over 400 at the meet and not tear either pec.

I had another meet scheduled 10 weeks later. The wise thing to do was to skip benching entirely for at least a month after the meet. Instead I pushed on. July 3rd I tore the left pec on a warm up set at 285. Tore the right one in December when I tried to come back too quickly from the other tear.

The bicep tendon tear last February was probably a blessing, albeit an expense one due to the surgery, as it forced me to back off benching after the surgery. When I came back I had significant shoulder pain from the removal of the chips.

All heavy benching for many months was done with either a three board or a two board attachment which not only took stress off the shoulders but also the pecs.

Haven't had any pec issues since and I'm hoping that continues.

Still not back to where I was in June, 2016 but I was able to close grip (index fingers on the smooth) 355 this morning with a bit more in the tank so I'm getting there.

 

[weighted chinup]

Here are my thoughts on this subject from a hypertrophy only perspective.

Benching is absolutely fantastic for growth but I don't recommend someone whose goals are hypertrophy to do a high weekly volume of flat or even incline barbell bench @ over 75% (I believe the recent literature shows shoulders taking over past that intensity and towards the higher intensities, triceps take lead, which is why you should do some heavy JM presses every now and then.)

My suggestion would be to:

Cycle between reverse band benching and benching with chains, and sporadic banded work on your pump or stretching movements (banded machine press, or even banded dumbbell presses) .

I can't recommend reverse band benching enough - it is truly fantastic for hypertrophy. Do these on either incline or flat and you will be amazed at how much stress off your junctions this will take off.

Anyone who has sworn off benching for hypertrophy, try reverse band benching (I prefer incline) working up to a top set of 6-8 @ rpe 9-10 (performed 2nd or 3rd in the exercise rotation) and thank me later.

I don't believe it is enough to rely on quantitative changes (like increasing load over time) in training stimulus once someone is carrying a lot of size and looking to grow more (advanced), you absolutely need a qualitative change in training stimulus on a periodic basis or you will get bitch slapped by the law of accommodation.

Cycle the exercises but do it in a way that is intelligent and not potato status (at least on your bread and butter movements - and you don't have to perform them every session or every week either. Feels good to take time off certain movements - and you can get away with it if your goal is size, you can get away with a lot of shit if your goal is only size, and there is no shame in taking advantage of that fact).

Works great for leg training (reverse band yoke bar box squats with a 3 second eccentric increasing intensities each set followed by a drop or a 60 second rest and subsequent amrap set with the same weight is an absolutely disgusting way to add some size to your getaway sticks. Change variables (intensities / modalities) and you have yourself a few weeks of leg training there too if you're good with training programming.

Also, hi everybody.

 

[ickyrica]

Here are my thoughts on this subject from a hypertrophy only perspective.

Benching is absolutely fantastic for growth but I don't recommend someone whose goals are hypertrophy to do a high weekly volume of flat or even incline barbell bench @ over 75% (I believe the recent literature shows shoulders taking over past that intensity and towards the higher intensities, triceps take lead, which is why you should do some heavy JM presses every now and then.)

My suggestion would be to:

Cycle between reverse band benching and benching with chains, and sporadic banded work on your pump or stretching movements (banded machine press, or even banded dumbbell presses) .

I can't recommend reverse band benching enough - it is truly fantastic for hypertrophy. Do these on either incline or flat and you will be amazed at how much stress off your junctions this will take off.

Anyone who has sworn off benching for hypertrophy, try reverse band benching (I prefer incline) working up to a top set of 6-8 @ rpe 9-10 (performed 2nd or 3rd in the exercise rotation) and thank me later.

I don't believe it is enough to rely on quantitative changes (like increasing load over time) in training stimulus once someone is carrying a lot of size and looking to grow more (advanced), you absolutely need a qualitative change in training stimulus on a periodic basis or you will get bitch slapped by the law of accommodation.

Cycle the exercises but do it in a way that is intelligent and not potato status (at least on your bread and butter movements - and you don't have to perform them every session or every week either. Feels good to take time off certain movements - and you can get away with it if your goal is size, you can get away with a lot of shit if your goal is only size, and there is no shame in taking advantage of that fact).

Works great for leg training (reverse band yoke bar box squats with a 3 second eccentric increasing intensities each set followed by a drop or a 60 second rest and subsequent amrap set with the same weight is an absolutely disgusting way to add some size to your getaway sticks. Change variables (intensities / modalities) and you have yourself a few weeks of leg training there too if you're good with training programming.

Also, hi everybody.

Awesome pro tips! Love thoughts from guys in the know.

How have you been? Haven't seen your name around much.

 

[weighted chinup]

How have you been? Haven't seen your name around much.

Been great, good to see you too Icky. I like to take breaks from the board every year or so for a few months at a time. I did that photo journal in the summer where I posted daily updates for 4 weeks straight, so I took a break from contributing after completing that just to prevent burn out.

 

[ickyrica]

Been great, good to see you too Icky. I like to take breaks from the board every year or so for a few months at a time. I did a photo log in the summer where I posted daily updates for 4 weeks straight, so I took a break from contributing after completing that just to prevent burn out.

I remember the log. You're always one of the guys with good BB contributions.

Meso burn out, lol. It's a real thing....

 

[Switcher]

I am a bit confused. I believe a more granular description regarding safely bench pressing over 405 lbs for an extended period would be helpful.

Are we saying every workout for periodicity? Are we saying periodically as our programs take us back to the heavy days is equally acceptable and fall within the parameters? Is this solely about powerlifting? This is not intended to make light of the thought, it just seems a bit nebulous what specific criteria is to be used.

I periodically bench 405 to 425 depending on how things work out. I have been doing this for at least 25 years. It is not every work out and more like every 4 months or so as my program(s) cycle back to more heavy days. I am not confident this would be applicable as this may not be regular enough.

 

[Demondosage]

Here are my thoughts on this subject from a hypertrophy only perspective.

Benching is absolutely fantastic for growth but I don't recommend someone whose goals are hypertrophy to do a high weekly volume of flat or even incline barbell bench @ over 75% (I believe the recent literature shows shoulders taking over past that intensity and towards the higher intensities, triceps take lead, which is why you should do some heavy JM presses every now and then.)

My suggestion would be to:

Cycle between reverse band benching and benching with chains, and sporadic banded work on your pump or stretching movements (banded machine press, or even banded dumbbell presses) .

I can't recommend reverse band benching enough - it is truly fantastic for hypertrophy. Do these on either incline or flat and you will be amazed at how much stress off your junctions this will take off.

Anyone who has sworn off benching for hypertrophy, try reverse band benching (I prefer incline) working up to a top set of 6-8 @ rpe 9-10 (performed 2nd or 3rd in the exercise rotation) and thank me later.

I don't believe it is enough to rely on quantitative changes (like increasing load over time) in training stimulus once someone is carrying a lot of size and looking to grow more (advanced), you absolutely need a qualitative change in training stimulus on a periodic basis or you will get bitch slapped by the law of accommodation.

Cycle the exercises but do it in a way that is intelligent and not potato status (at least on your bread and butter movements - and you don't have to perform them every session or every week either. Feels good to take time off certain movements - and you can get away with it if your goal is size, you can get away with a lot of shit if your goal is only size, and there is no shame in taking advantage of that fact).

Works great for leg training (reverse band yoke bar box squats with a 3 second eccentric increasing intensities each set followed by a drop or a 60 second rest and subsequent amrap set with the same weight is an absolutely disgusting way to add some size to your getaway sticks. Change variables (intensities / modalities) and you have yourself a few weeks of leg training there too if you're good with training programming.

Also, hi everybody.

Awesome input!!! Thank you for that