Trying Out DUP

[Test_Subject]

Hey Meso bros. I'm going to try out a DUP program (written by myself). I'm admittedly not a periodization expert, so I thought I'd post it up here and see if anyone could spot any glaring deficiencies.

Instead of using a set weight increase over workouts, I have the last set of each strength day set up as an AMRAP set to gauge my maxes and act as a way to autoregulate my progression. I have it set up as a four week cycle.

Day One
Squat 4 x 5
Close grip bench 8 x 4
Rows 6 x 5
Accessory seated dumbell shoulder press

Day Two
Deadlift 4 x 5
Incline bench 6 x 5
Paused squat 8 x 4
Accessory barbell curl

Day Three
Bench 4 x 5
Front squat 6 x 5
Good morning 8 x 4
Accessory skullcrushers

Day four is an accessory day to work on weak points with a shoulder focus. Typical hypertrophy ranges for everything.

Repeat for another weak, then drop a rep from all of the sets and add 5% weight to everything for two weeks. Rinse, repeat with previous 3rm for sets of 4.

Any suggestions or criticisms?

Edit: spelling fail.

 

[weighted chinup]

The waving of intensities/volume looks good, weekly volume parameters look good on a quick glance.

Regarding optimizing long term progress, here's something to consider with DUP. Whether or not DUP itself qualifies as a form of periodization in and of itself is dubious IMO. I've heard Dr. Mike Israetel talk about this concept w.r.t DUP.

DUP to me is less periodization in itself and more a method of handling intensity/loading/volume and what you're going to do in the gym on any given day, but says little for how a year of training is going to be planned out.

My point being, the question isn't whether or not it will work great (it will), will it work great in the long term.

With that, I would propose altering variables in each subsequent block / 4 week cycle you have planned, whether it be exercise selection or even intensities used with DUP. I.E) you can run 1 4 week mesocycle exactly as you have outlined, your next one can use different intensities (maybe a higher RM overall for a more hypertrophy oriented block to resensitize yourself for a strength mesocycle, or a metabolic stress phase for the same purpose).

I know DUP seems to be the solution to this because you can train qualities/intensities concurrently within a week of training (strength, speed work, hypertrophy work etc) but I seriously don't believe it is sufficient periodization to carry someone long term (as in 6+ months to a year and beyond), and that is why I propose changing something, anything (in a planned manner) for each 4 week mesocycle.

With DUP being used it can be simple changes in each mesocycle, doesn't have to change what's happening under the hood too much: as long as its putting you in a position to drive progress. You can handle this instinctively.

When I implemented DUP for a bb' program, I suspected this and took a dual factor approach with a planned deload after each mesocycle. I think there are better ways to handle it now though.

Just something to consider. The program looks sustainable and suitable.

 

[weighted chinup]

I should clarify, my thoughts on altering subsequent mesocycles is not something you have to worry about or do now: it's something you can literally plan out when the first 4 week block finishes (that's when I design my next mesocycle for training lol).

 

[LeoTC]

You didn't really break down how you're periodizing the program. You just laid out what you'll be doing and how you'll lay them out.

What does your strength matrix look like? That's way more telling than breaking down the movements you'll be using.

 

[Test_Subject]

The waving of intensities/volume looks good, weekly volume parameters look good on a quick glance.

Regarding optimizing long term progress, here's something to consider with DUP. Whether or not DUP itself qualifies as a form of periodization in and of itself is dubious IMO. I've heard Dr. Mike Israetel talk about this concept w.r.t DUP.

DUP to me is less periodization in itself and more a method of handling intensity/loading/volume and what you're going to do in the gym on any given day, but says little for how a year of training is going to be planned out.

My point being, the question isn't whether or not it will work great (it will), will it work great in the long term.

With that, I would propose altering variables in each subsequent block / 4 week cycle you have planned, whether it be exercise selection or even intensities used with DUP. I.E) you can run 1 4 week mesocycle exactly as you have outlined, your next one can use different intensities (maybe a higher RM overall for a more hypertrophy oriented block to resensitize yourself for a strength mesocycle, or a metabolic stress phase for the same purpose).

I know DUP seems to be the solution to this because you can train qualities/intensities concurrently within a week of training (strength, speed work, hypertrophy work etc) but I seriously don't believe it is sufficient periodization to carry someone long term (as in 6+ months to a year and beyond), and that is why I propose changing something, anything (in a planned manner) for each 4 week mesocycle.

With DUP being used it can be simple changes in each mesocycle, doesn't have to change what's happening under the hood too much: as long as its putting you in a position to drive progress. You can handle this instinctively.

When I implemented DUP for a bb' program, I suspected this and took a dual factor approach with a planned deload after each mesocycle. I think there are better ways to handle it now though.

Just something to consider. The program looks sustainable and suitable.

I appreciate the feedback.

I definitely plan on varying the movements with each mesocycle, although I'm planning on keeping the big three intact, albiet at varying rep schemes and focuses.

Varying the intensities is definitely something that I'll be implementing rather than running a straight 1:1:1 strength, power, hypertrophy scheme. Next block I'll likely drop the power/speed reps in favour of an additional hypertrophy scheme as you suggested to prepare for a 2:1 strength and power block.

Ultimately I want something sustainable that's going to give me a good balance between size and strength (doesn't everyone) and DUP as a concept is intriguing to me because it seems to be strongly rooted in science.

I appreciate your suggestions.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Confused AF by this stuff. Sub’d.

 

[Perrin Aybara]

Just a suggestion on your order of exercises and days. These are exactly the same movements you picked, just in a different order for better recovery purposes.

Day One
Squat 4 x 5
Good morning 8 x 4
Paused squat 8 x 4
Accessory barbell curl

Day Two
Bench 4 x 5
Front squat 6 x 5
Close grip bench 8 x 4
Accessory skullcrushers

Day Three
Deadlift 4 x 5
Incline bench 6 x 5
Rows 6 x 5
Accessory seated dumbell shoulder press

Day Four
Accessories day

That way you get more lower body recovery between squat and deadlift, you're not working your lower back as much in between day one and day three, you're not hitting your shoulders and triceps right before your main bench day, and still allows you to hit your front squats and incline while those muscles groups are still fresh for the day.

 

[Holidaypay]

Man this thread made me realize just how much I am slacking with training knowledge u guys minds well be speaking fuckin Japanese I gta spend less time in homebrew section an more in the training section

 

[Holidaypay]

An sorry to derail this thread @Test_Subject but can someone please tell me what a strength matrix is

 

[Perrin Aybara]

Also, I was just doing the AMRAP thing with one of the big three each week until recently. It was working really well until I got a hamstring injury a few weeks ago. Anyway, I started with about 75% of 1RM and was doing a 3x3 followed by an AMRAP and the idea was to add a little each training cycle and try to keep reps high as long as possible and depending on how it went try for the 1RM deadlift I failed to get at my last meet when the time seemed right. I'm still doing it with bench only now and gonna see if I can hit a new bench PR with it since I can only do upper body at the moment. My training partner is still running it how I was originally and it's working really well for him.

 

[weighted chinup]

I appreciate the feedback.

I definitely plan on varying the movements with each mesocycle, although I'm planning on keeping the big three intact, albiet at varying rep schemes and focuses.

Varying the intensities is definitely something that I'll be implementing rather than running a straight 1:1:1 strength, power, hypertrophy scheme. Next block I'll likely drop the power/speed reps in favour of an additional hypertrophy scheme as you suggested to prepare for a 2:1 strength and power block.

Ultimately I want something sustainable that's going to give me a good balance between size and strength (doesn't everyone) and DUP as a concept is intriguing to me because it seems to be strongly rooted in science.

I appreciate your suggestions.

As a general rule, it's a good measure to plan out a good portion of a calendar with each mesocycle. They don't have to be fleshed out on a microcycle basis or anything but it's pretty simple to do if the first mesocycle is a strength block, the next 4 weeks will be (insert whatever will work best for your goal).

That's as far as I would go for planning out the year, the specifics of lift variation, modalities, accommodating resistance used etc don't need to be fleshed out that far in advance unless you are preparing for a competitive event.

I can tell you that on April 6th, for example, I will be in the final week of a metabolic stress mesocycle and can even give you a good idea of what my weekly volume parameters will be on that date for that training week. Lift selection, intensity techniques, etc, remain to be determined, it's dependant on what I did the previous mesocycle, how I performed, and what needs work next.

Strength oriented lifters will benefit from planning out the specifics more than a pure hypertrophy oriented lifter but for raw lifting, I prefer not to complicate things, the simpler the better.

The only thing you need to determine really is what sequence to plan your subsequent mesocycles within a macrocycle, what is the sequence that is going to drive progress the best.

My particular sequencing (on a pure hypertrophy program) is as follows: macrocycle starts with my version of a maximal effort / strength oriented block (I don't do traditional maximal effort/strength work, we're talking 6RM work here at the heaviest with sometimes lower if a high-intensity technique is being used in conjunction to promote growth), followed by a moderate RM / hypertrophy mesocycle, followed by a metabolic stress mesocycle. Each mesocycle is 4 weeks, sometimes I will concatenate the moderate RM mesocycle and move to the metabolic stress phase if it starts to resemble what I was doing in strength phase.

Obviously, there is a lot more happening underneath the hood particularly with how volume is handled on a weekly basis (my secret sauce if you will lol), but that's what my calendar looks like.

Plan a sequence that will work optimally and plan out your year. Don't be overly rigid if a change in sequencing is needed, especially if strength is the goal (for myself I've had no issues with rigid sequencing, but again, hypertrophy oriented primarily and I use other tech when it comes to weekly volume to keep promoting steady progress every week).

 

[Test_Subject]

Just a suggestion on your order of exercises and days. These are exactly the same movements you picked, just in a different order for better recovery purposes.

Day One
Squat 4 x 5
Good morning 8 x 4
Paused squat 8 x 4
Accessory barbell curl

Day Two
Bench 4 x 5
Front squat 6 x 5
Close grip bench 8 x 4
Accessory skullcrushers

Day Three
Deadlift 4 x 5
Incline bench 6 x 5
Rows 6 x 5
Accessory seated dumbell shoulder press

Day Four
Accessories day

That way you get more lower body recovery between squat and deadlift, you're not working your lower back as much in between day one and day three, you're not hitting your shoulders and triceps right before your main bench day, and still allows you to hit your front squats and incline while those muscles groups are still fresh for the day.

Good call. This is exactly why I posted the routine on here for critique.

I'm still learning the ropes of program design, but I got sick of running cookie cutter programs written by other people.

 

[LeoTC]

An sorry to derail this thread @Test_Subject but can someone please tell me what a strength matrix is

Basically a matrix / table laying out intensity / volume for each training block and each individual phase of your workout there-in.

I'll add a snap of what I'm laying out for my next 12Wk block.

 

[Btcowboy]

Subbed too as I am trying to run RP on my own now.

 

[LeoTC]

And since I can't edit anymore...

What you're looking at in the snap breaks down intensity for my primary movements, assistance movements, and either conditioning or specificity movements for each day. It also lays out how many reps I'm shooting for at each intensity.

Then I build the workout around those numbers in the format that jives with my current goal.

I'll be fleshing this one out in my training log. You can get a better idea of my approach there if interested.

 

[Holidaypay]

Basically a matrix / table laying out intensity / volume for each training block and each individual phase of your workout there-in.

I'll add a snap of what I'm laying out for my next 12Wk block.

Ok thank you for dumbing it down for me when I googled it workout supplements was all that was showing up

 

[LeoTC]

No worries, I take a really specific approach to programming and I don't think it's a term used all that often.

It's a really helpful tool for figuring out how to get the most out of a program without sacrificing recovery. You've got eyes on the entire block and after you're done it's just a matter of plugging in the relevant numbers for the day / week / wave.