regardless it’s the truth. I’ll get to the cardio. Never stated to be the smartest lmao
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Blood Pressure
- Thread starter gilmarpersonal
- Start date
Ghoul
Member
The most recent BP management guidelines changed position last year and now advocate starting with meds first if BP is over 130/80, and ASCVD risk is above 10% (almost all AAS users are), because the risk from modern antihypertensives is minuscule compared to the risk of a piece of plaque breaking off and stopping your heart or popping a vessel in your brain. Then, after confirming no BP organ damage (kidneys, LVH, heart failure), they advise trying 3-12 months of lifestyle changes to get off the meds.
AAS users, even in 20s, have 3x higher risk of heart attack than non-AAS using peers, and they aren't even sure what causes some cardiovascular death in AAS users like sudden heart failure. The unique damage AAS users have often doesn't show up until an autopsy is done because:
You're approaching this correctly and with the seriousness it deserves:
Anabolic-androgenic steroids and cardiovascular risk - PMC
Anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) represents a group of synthetic testosterone derivatives that play an important role in clinical treatment. These drugs are widely abused among the general public to increase lean weight and improve athletic ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
AlexDavis43
Member
absolutely with the cardio
Mastedon
Member
@Ghoul I've been reading Meso for years, only signed up last year and never post anything but I wanted to say thank you for all your info on BP and lipids. I have been prescribed Telmisartan with Hctz, ordered and tried amlodipine (had edema in the feet so I stopped), and my Cilnidipine finally landed so reducing the Telm from 80 to 40 and starting with Ciln at 5mg.
Currently at 110-120ish / 70-75 and very happy about that. I was in the 140s/90s on-cycle but was still in the 130s/85 off-cycle.
Plan is to figure out what I need to be at 110/70 off-cycle then when on cycle I have the levers of turning up the Ciln first, from 5 to 10 or 15, max 20 then Telm can go up to 60 or 80 if needed.
Also, regarding lipids, I was able to be prescribed ezetimibe with bempedoic acid (Nexlizet). My Pitavastatin just arrived after ordering it 3 or 4 weeks ago. Starting with 2mg. Will get bloodwork in about a month to see where things are at.
Sorry to hijack this thread but if this place is supposed to be about harm reduction you have absolutely helped me with that so I wanted to thank you.
Currently at 110-120ish / 70-75 and very happy about that. I was in the 140s/90s on-cycle but was still in the 130s/85 off-cycle.
Plan is to figure out what I need to be at 110/70 off-cycle then when on cycle I have the levers of turning up the Ciln first, from 5 to 10 or 15, max 20 then Telm can go up to 60 or 80 if needed.
Also, regarding lipids, I was able to be prescribed ezetimibe with bempedoic acid (Nexlizet). My Pitavastatin just arrived after ordering it 3 or 4 weeks ago. Starting with 2mg. Will get bloodwork in about a month to see where things are at.
Sorry to hijack this thread but if this place is supposed to be about harm reduction you have absolutely helped me with that so I wanted to thank you.
This is probably the most straight forward answer I've seen on Meso in a while. Well played Sir!
Ateam2023
Member
you've been here for a little over 6 months, it gets better,,, waiiit for it,,,,, waiiit for it,,,,
malfeasance
Member
Please post back on how cardio effects your blood pressure.
Since you are new to it, I will tell you in advance that at first it is really going to suck. The good thing, however, is you will adapt to it really quickly, like new lifter gains in the weight room. Your cardiovascular system will adjust pretty much daily at first. Progress will come quickly.
Some helpful advice. Get something to do. Cardio is boring. I do mine usually on a stair master (one of those escalator type machines). I bring my iPhone, and watch movies with lots of machine guns and explosions (think Blackhawk Down, The Siege of Jadotville, and similar). It takes my mind off of what would otherwise be mind numbingly boring. UFC fights can help, too, but only if it is a good fight - the boring ones make it worse!
Do something with weight on your legs. Like the stair master or an elliptical.
Don't give up on a machine because it feels awkward. They all feel awkward at first.
Get your heart rate up.
This means you need to measure your heart rate. If the machine has a heart rate monitor, great. If not, then get some way to measure it.
Get your heart rate over 120 bpm for at least 20 minutes. Higher is better. (Fight me, bro).
Record what you do. When you are done, write down the time, intensity, calories burned (most machines track this), and maximum heart rate.
Your heart rate will go down for the same level of work. Remember when I said you will make progress really quickly at first? In order to elevate your heart rate again, you will need to add more time, or add to the intensity level, to get your heart rate up. This is a good thing, by the way.
So by writing it down, you know you did level 1 for 30 minutes. So you write down 1 x 30, 280 cals, 125 bpm. Maybe next time your heart rate is only 119.
I add one or two minutes at a time until I get to 45 minutes, then I increase the level and start back at 30 minutes. So at some point I am writing down 1 x 36, 320 cals, 127 bpm, and then later 2 x 30, 285 cals, 132 bpm.
By tracking, I can make small adjustments, progressively like weight training, or like small changes to diet.
Please let us know how it goes.
I predict significant blood pressure changes within two weeks.
15min of stairmaster at moderate difficulty is amazing for my RHR and BP. Dropped my RHR by 15 within 2 months
Mastedon
Member
Super helpful information. It's true that I need to push myself to do more cardio and I'm not great at doing that. Your post really helped to drive that point. I have a rower now so I'm going to focus on that a bit. It's funny because I grew up a runner. 5k, 10k, half marathons even triathlons but I fell out of love with it a long while back. Every now and then I'll go on a running kick that lasts about three months but it's crazy hot here in the summer so that quickly stops that.
The other odd thing is that while there was some minimal cardio I was doing, I stopped when I elevated the use of compounds. Stupid I know as it is exactly the opposite of what I should have done. Historically I've only used test (at increasing levels only up to 300mg) but several months back I did some shorter, 8 week "tryouts" of a few new compounds and had great results. Although to be fair I was only adding 50 to 200mg to see what I could do with smaller amounts.
So while neglecting cardio in general, and even (stupidly) more so while bumping up my compounds, the time has come to do exactly what you said and do the damn cardio but also track the data. I'll commit to 20min 3x a week and build up from there. I'll start shopping for a heart rate monitor right now.
Thank you @malfeasance for the feedback, the insight and the push. It's keeping me honest with myself and much appreciated!
BP_6
Member
Great to see the cardio discussion. I don't even think it should even be an option not to do it. Not saying at all it has to be any kind of high intensity.
What works best for me is a simple moderate low incline on the treadmill and walking at a moderate speed without holding onto the top. I do this 30 minutes after ever workout and for an hour on my two rest days. It has really helped out my blood pressure and overall health. I also take a 20 minute brisk walk around my block ever evening as an add on.
What works best for me is a simple moderate low incline on the treadmill and walking at a moderate speed without holding onto the top. I do this 30 minutes after ever workout and for an hour on my two rest days. It has really helped out my blood pressure and overall health. I also take a 20 minute brisk walk around my block ever evening as an add on.
Will try this I definitely need to stop skipping cardio
I’ll report back after I have 4 to 6 weeks of 30-45 min of cardio daily. I’m going to implement it fasted upon waking just due to work and my schedule, only time it really fits for me. Everytime I have done extended periods of cardio esp in past (even in prep with excessive peds) my bp was great. No doubt it is the best way. Compliance is the problem with cardio, a lot of ppl simply won’t do it. Or it will be the first thing “most” ppl quit when life gets hard. I have done cardio for as long as a year straight in the past, been into this lifestyle for almost 20 years. For me cardio is the hardest part, I hate it lmao. I will also say this, at the times in my life where I was doing cardio the rest of my life was locked in. Nothing makes me feel better than a bout of fasted cardio. Yet the current truth still is I walk right past the treadmill in my living room every morning and take bp meds. I will lock in here soon.
explodingHeart
Member
The most recent BP management guidelines changed position last year and now advocate starting with meds first if BP is over 130/80, and ASCVD risk is above 10% (almost all AAS users are), because the risk from modern antihypertensives is minuscule compared to the risk of a piece of plaque breaking off and stopping your heart or popping a vessel in your brain. Then, after confirming no BP organ damage (kidneys, LVH, heart failure), they advise trying 3-12 months of lifestyle changes to get off the meds.
AAS users, even in 20s, have 3x higher risk of heart attack than non-AAS using peers, and they aren't even sure what causes some cardiovascular death in AAS users like sudden heart failure. The unique damage AAS users have often doesn't show up until an autopsy is done because:
View attachment 339028
You're approaching this correctly and with the seriousness it deserves:
View attachment 339027
Anabolic-androgenic steroids and cardiovascular risk - PMC
Anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) represents a group of synthetic testosterone derivatives that play an important role in clinical treatment. These drugs are widely abused among the general public to increase lean weight and improve athletic ...
Ghoul, for on cycle/blast, from PCT 24/7.
Cinaloc-t 10mg Cilnidipine/40mg telmisartan.
is this better than buying telmi / cilnidipine individually? Seems slightly cheaper.
Ghoul
Member
I prefer to reduce pill count where possible. I think there are not only practical but subtle psychological benefits.
TLDR yes the fact the combo is cheaper than Ciln alone makes it a no brainer imo.
The deeper rationale follows (warning: over analysis psychosis below lol).
Usually better to start separate because if dose isn't dialed in, you risk getting stuck with combo meds you can't use.
In this case though, both are at starting doses, so if any adjustment would be needed, you're really only going up from here (by adding 10 Ciln or 40 Telm), so "Going to waste" is unlikely.
I started with 10/40 as separate tablets. Since 4 weeks in I wasn't hitting target of 115 SBP, I decided to try increasing Ciln first (normally you'd increase the ARB first, not the CCB). It worked out great, providing the additional 5 points of SBP reduction I needed, but it was the down-regulation of adrenaline driven sympathetic nervous system effects via n-channel blocking that's most impressive. If you're the "high adrenal tone" phenotype (50-60% of Northern Europeans thanks to the Vikings) subtly life changing is no exaggeration. Anyway, at that point I was able to commit to buying a 4 year supply of 20/40 tabs for a great wholesale price.
Given how it's cured my longstanding Reynaud's symptoms, and the great "feel" of reduced sympathetic drive, I'm concerned about loss of access to Ciln lowering my quality of life, so building a significant buffer supply was something important to me.
I even grabbed 1k of Ciln 20 tabs from the same vendor, since adding it on was very cheap, just in case I need to drop the Telm at some point and can't use the combo. That's unlikely though, my BP is very stable as I'm maxed out on cardio induced reduction, and at ideal weight already.
explodingHeart
Member
Honestly this is just for using high dose GH and/or high test.
I'm about 40 and wanna blast off and on for a few more years before I hang it up. Without it, I could get sub 120/80 on 250mg "TRT" and no meds.
Although I guess as I age, I'll probably need stronger BP support. So I'll buy 1000 pills this month before we can't buy from India anymore. Decent plan?
Ghoul
Member
Sounds good. You may as well get 20mg, since they're only a like 5% more than 10mg, and splittable. For reference, 1200 Cilniheal 20mg cost me $80+shipping.
If you get a different brand, ensure it's in all aluminum blister packs(vs plastic blister). It's a durable med, but all aluminum, especially if you stash it in the refrigerator, will likely retain potency for decades like the majority of solid tab pharma does when sealed away from light and humidity inside aluminum bubbles.
Healing Pharma contracts out manufacturing for this, and I was able to trace it to an FDA inspected facility operated by a well respected producer of US generics, so that was a small reassurance:
Morepen Labs Baddi facility clears USFDA inspection without any adverse observation
Gurugram: Morepen Labs has recently announced that the United States Food and Drug Administration (USFDA) has conducted an inspection of the API manufacturing facility, at Baddi, Himachal Pradesh, ...
explodingHeart
Member
Was this from PCT 24/7? Or the other Indian pharm you DM'd me about?Sounds good. You may as well get 20mg, since they're only a like 5% more than 10mg, and splittable. For reference, 1200 Cilniheal 20mg cost me $80+shipping.
If you get a different brand, ensure it's in all aluminum blister packs(vs plastic blister). It's a durable med, but all aluminum, especially if you stash it in the refrigerator, will likely retain potency for decades like the majority of solid tab pharma does when sealed away from light and humidity inside aluminum bubbles.
View attachment 339160
Healing Pharma contracts out manufacturing for this, and I was able to trace it to an FDA inspected facility operated by a well respected producer of US generics, so that was a small reassurance:
Morepen Labs Baddi facility clears USFDA inspection without any adverse observation
Gurugram: Morepen Labs has recently announced that the United States Food and Drug Administration (USFDA) has conducted an inspection of the API manufacturing facility, at Baddi, Himachal Pradesh, ...medicaldialogues.in
I don't see Cilniheal in PCT 24x7's price list.
Photon
Member
PCT prices are much higher actually.
I havn't switched sources but probably will in future, either that or maybe switch to a direct PCP. I've switched mostly to US Pharma but stuff like cilnidipine is just not available.
Sounds good. You may as well get 20mg, since they're only a like 5% more than 10mg, and splittable. For reference, 1200 Cilniheal 20mg cost me $80+shipping.
If you get a different brand, ensure it's in all aluminum blister packs(vs plastic blister). It's a durable med, but all aluminum, especially if you stash it in the refrigerator, will likely retain potency for decades like the majority of solid tab pharma does when sealed away from light and humidity inside aluminum bubbles.
View attachment 339160
Healing Pharma contracts out manufacturing for this, and I was able to trace it to an FDA inspected facility operated by a well respected producer of US generics, so that was a small reassurance:
Morepen Labs Baddi facility clears USFDA inspection without any adverse observation
Gurugram: Morepen Labs has recently announced that the United States Food and Drug Administration (USFDA) has conducted an inspection of the API manufacturing facility, at Baddi, Himachal Pradesh, ...
That's like .7$ a strip. Way better than MSRP
explodingHeart
Member
Seems there's no way to add "Cilniheal" to cart on healingpharmaonline. They ship to the USA?PCT prices are much higher actually.
I havn't switched sources but probably will in future, either that or maybe switch to a direct PCP. I've switched mostly to US Pharma but stuff like cilnidipine is just not available.
That's like .7$ a strip. Way better than MSRP
Photon
Member
That website is not for consumers but i use it to check if products are avail at healing pharma since their products are usually not on 1mg.com
