Halfway through first cycle - joint and ligament pain

[Jimin Marvinluder]

So I'm 8 weeks into my first cycle - Test C 500mg/week and HGH 4u/day. I've had really solid results: I've added about 12 pounds of mass since I started, seems to be in all the right places, really happy so far. However, I'm running into a problem I was a little concerned might happen. I seem to be adding mass faster than my body is prepared to handle it. I've been experiencing increased joint and tendon pain, particularly in my shoulders and biceps, and have had an ongoing bicep tendonitis in my left arm. I had to take a week off from upper body training and it's still giving me some trouble. My typical routine, which I ramped up to over about six months before my first cycle, is lifting 5-6 days per week, rotating push, pull, and lower body workouts with core integrated into each day. It took me time to get used to this routine after my long term weight loss, but I had no problem with it after about a month and a half, and was not having any joint or ligament issues. I can definitely rule out it being caused by AI's as I just started taking those in the last week, and this has been ongoing for a number of weeks.

I'm not really sure how to proceed. I guess I can ramp down and take it easier the rest of the way, that's just kind of a shitty outcome being only halfway through. I do have Deca on hand that I could add in, but I'm hesitant to add in another compound on my first cycle, especially when I only have another 8 weeks to go. I don't have any other peptides on hand so that's not an option at the moment (going to fix that to have things for injury recovery on hand for the future). If anyone has any suggestions for things I can add to my supplement stack to help with joint and tendon support, I'm definitely open to suggestions. Or should I just pull the trigger and just add low dose Deca the rest of the way?

 

[Stealth500]

My typical routine, which I ramped up to over about six months before my first cycle

If all your bloodwork is fine, maybe it's a mechanical issue and not a drug issue.

Pushing higher volume/weight because of the gear. Hitting angles that didn't cause joint discomfort before but now with the added intensity it is building up. Could be specific exercises triggering the problem.

 

[Psy-chonaut]

If the joint pain start to hold you back in your training - there is no shame in doing some kind of a deload, when you are 'On"....

And then use this time to emperical look inwards at the 'why's' and the 'What's of exercise selection, mechanics, Vol. etc....

If I have 'hit by a truck' / flu like symptoms for to long or , and my elbows are screaming, cuz I maybe added 45 pounds to quick, and are a bit to explosive - sometimes I just take 2 days off...

 

[adrenalytic]

I've added about 12 pounds of mass since I started

8+ lbs. of that is likely intracellular water, not new tissue.

I had to take a week off from upper body training and it's still giving me some trouble.

If you're still having problems after a week off then CNS overload is likely not your problem but you could try a full 2 weeks off. That seems to do a full hard reset for me.

I can definitely rule out it being caused by AI's as I just started taking those in the last week

Why did you begin taking an AI? Feels? Or did bloodwork confirm your E2 is high?

I do have Deca on hand that I could add in, but I'm hesitant to add in another compound on my first cycle

As you should be. Adding compounds without bloodwork is just begging for more complications. Throwing unnecessary drugs at a problem caused by drugs never made sense to me. Address the underlying issue. It could be time to consider a lower dose of test. You're on your first blast, use this time to learn about how your body reacts to supraphysiological loads of T and how to manage those reactions.

things I can add to my supplement stack to help with joint and tendon support

Collagen supplements, glucosamine chondroitin can be effective.

Other thoughts:

Have you done bloodwork? I assume not since you didn't give any markers. That should be your next move. You also didn't give any stats on yourself. Age, height, weight, bf%? Any prior injuries or issues with joint pain? Those all can factor into joint health.

 

[Psy-chonaut]

Follow up question : are you an experienced GH user - or did you Just throw in GH as you started the cycle ?

- If I remember correctly GH has a sideeffect profile that causes/worsens joint /muscle pain in some, when you start up - I actually had a lot of joint pain when i started a 1,5 years ago , Ohh my dear lord....

 

[Jimin Marvinluder]

8+ lbs. of that is likely intracellular water, not new tissue.

If you're still having problems after a week off then CNS overload is likely not your problem but you could try a full 2 weeks off. That seems to do a full hard reset for me.

Yeah, I may have to do that, I'm thinking I just got a little too eager here with how good I was feeling and how much progress I made and boom.

Why did you begin taking an AI? Feels? Or did bloodwork confirm your E2 is high?

First bloodwork after week 4 had my Total Test at 3935 and my E2 at 93.8. It was right around that time I suspected I was starting to have symptoms so I started Arimidex.

As you should be. Adding compounds without bloodwork is just begging for more complications. Throwing unnecessary drugs at a problem caused by drugs never made sense to me. Address the underlying issue. It could be time to consider a lower dose of test. You're on your first blast, use this time to learn about how your body reacts to supraphysiological loads of T and how to manage those reactions.

I 100% agree, I want to do this the right way and be smart about it. I plan to do this long term so I don't want to screw things up on my first cycle.

Collagen supplements, glucosamine chondroitin can be effective.

Thank you, I knew there was something I was forgetting, I will definitely add this into my supplement stack.

Have you done bloodwork? I assume not since you didn't give any markers. That should be your next move. You also didn't give any stats on yourself. Age, height, weight, bf%? Any prior injuries or issues with joint pain? Those all can factor into joint health.

Yeah sorry I wrote this up last night and was really tired, I didn't think that seemed relevant. I'm 36, started at 5'9", 170, currently 182, don't know BF%, haven't had joint pain since I lost about 85 lbs a year ago. Minor injuries playing sports as a kid but nothing that required surgery of anything like that.

I did do baseline lab work before starting, including CBC, CMP, Lipids, SHBG, etc, most things were within normal limits, my SHBG was slightly elevated but that was the only abnormal. I hadn't planned a full repeat of everything this early, but if it continues to be an issue I may move it up.

Follow up question : are you an experienced GH user - or did you Just throw in GH as you started the cycle ?

- If I remember correctly GH has a sideeffect profile that causes/worsens joint /muscle pain in some, when you start up - I actually had a lot of joint pain when i started a 1,5 years ago , Ohh my dear lord....

I started the HGH about 3 months prior to my first cycle, and titrated up from 2 to 4 units over that time period with minimal side effects.

 

[Jimin Marvinluder]

If the joint pain start to hold you back in your training - there is no shame in doing some kind of a deload, when you are 'On"....

And then use this time to emperical look inwards at the 'why's' and the 'What's of exercise selection, mechanics, Vol. etc....

If I have 'hit by a truck' / flu like symptoms for to long or , and my elbows are screaming, cuz I maybe added 45 pounds to quick, and are a bit to explosive - sometimes I just take 2 days off...

Yeah, I was really frustrated last night, but I think I need to just accept that I moved too quickly and need to back off on the overall volume I'm doing. The progress I've made so far is really great, there's no need to fuck it up by pushing too much and tearing something. It's hard, this shit makes you feel so fucking good.

 

[BamaCrazy]

Yeah, I was really frustrated last night, but I think I need to just accept that I moved too quickly and need to back off on the overall volume I'm doing. The progress I've made so far is really great, there's no need to fuck it up by pushing too much and tearing something. It's hard, this shit makes you feel so fucking good.

How long have you been taking Arimidex and have you checked your E2 since? Low E2 makes everything in my body ache. And has caused me several issues similar to what you are experiencing.

 

[Jimin Marvinluder]

How long have you been taking Arimidex and have you checked your E2 since? Low E2 makes everything in my body ache. And has caused me several issues similar to what you are experiencing.

Only about a week and a half, my labs got lost so there was an absurd delay in getting them back. Only taking 0.25 E3.5D. Also, I started having this issue before I started taking the AI.

 

[adrenalytic]

I hadn't planned a full repeat of everything this early, but if it continues to be an issue I may move it up.

Well, since you added Adex 4 weeks ago, it's right around now that you'd want to check the impact it had. You don't need to pull a full hormone panel. Just E2 check is all you need. You already know your T is off the charts so leave it at that. Your gear is good

I started having this issue before I started taking the AI.

I know it's confusing but joint pain can also be cause by high E2. The difference only being in the way the pain presents itself. High E2 joint pain is typically from fluid retention and can feel like puffiness, soreness or aching. Low E2 joint pain is more of a dry, brittle and stiff joint pain.

Either way, time for an E2 check up imo.

 

[Jimin Marvinluder]

Well, since you added Adex 4 weeks ago, it's right around now that you'd want to check the impact it had. You don't need to pull a full hormone panel. Just E2 check is all you need. You already know your T is off the charts so leave it at that. Your gear is good



I know it's confusing but joint pain can also be cause by high E2. The difference only being in the way the pain presents itself. High E2 joint pain is typically from fluid retention and can feel like puffiness, soreness or aching. Low E2 joint pain is more of a dry, brittle and stiff joint pain.

Either way, time for an E2 check up imo.

Appreciate this. I have orders so I may just go get this done tomorrow if I can get an appointment for a draw.

 

[adrenalytic]

Appreciate this. I have orders so I may just go get this done tomorrow if I can get an appointment for a draw.

Just make sure to avoid biotin (check your multivitamin ingredients if you take one) and drink a liter of water before draw. Report back

 

[samnak]

Just make sure to avoid biotin (check your multivitamin ingredients if you take one) and drink a liter of water before draw. Report back

Curious whats biotin show up in the blood work as? its definitely in a lot of minoxidil orals

 

[adrenalytic]

Curious whats biotin show up in the blood work as? its definitely in a lot of minoxidil orals

It doesn't show up. It interferes with the immunoassays used by the lab so you can get false readings. Your actual biomarkers aren't affected but your lab's reading of them are.

For hormone assays, it will typically show higher than actual results.

 

[samnak]

It doesn't show up. It interferes with the immunoassays used by the lab so you can get false readings. Your actual biomarkers aren't affected but your lab's reading of them are.

For hormone assays, it will typically show higher than actual results.

did some research for anyone who stumbles on this you only need to stop the biotin 24 to 72 hrs before with the high end being if you were taking huge doses good tip

 

[adrenalytic]

did some research for anyone who stumbles on this you only need to stop the biotin 24 to 72 hrs before with the high end being if you were taking huge doses good tip

Another protip: it's best not to do any heavy training in the 3 days leading up to the test.

This of course depends on the biomarkers you're testing but for our purposes as enhanced bodybuilders, it's generally a good idea to abstain from a full send workout for at least 48 hours prior to draw.

The metabolites and enzymes can skew a lot of the markers we test. For example, creatine kinase can jump up after intense lifting, and AST/ALT rise too since they exist in the muscle. And cortisol spikes will alter your hormones temporarily.

Have a nice light couple workouts if you must but leave some in the tank.

 

[ToesOverKnees]

It could be 2 things at once, you've pushed your strength up too fast, plus rapid muscle growth tightens up muscles around joints so tendons and ligaments become pinched and misaligned.
So 2 actions to do now are twice daily stretching, morning and night, full body and do Pnf stretching because its much more effective IME than just static.
The other action is to go to 75% of your current weights and do reps until 5 reps in reserve, stop 5 reps from failure. Do this for a month. You'll still grow because you're highly anabolic from the cycle. This time next year you'll also be a lot further ahead because you won't get injured bro.
When on a cycle it's necessary to really program rep and weight progression and hold back. It sounds backwards to train much easier on cycle but I think thats that gives better results because you don't have to stop because of injury.

 

[sneak007]

So I'm 8 weeks into my first cycle - Test C 500mg/week and HGH 4u/day. I've had really solid results: I've added about 12 pounds of mass since I started, seems to be in all the right places, really happy so far. However, I'm running into a problem I was a little concerned might happen. I seem to be adding mass faster than my body is prepared to handle it. I've been experiencing increased joint and tendon pain, particularly in my shoulders and biceps, and have had an ongoing bicep tendonitis in my left arm. I had to take a week off from upper body training and it's still giving me some trouble. My typical routine, which I ramped up to over about six months before my first cycle, is lifting 5-6 days per week, rotating push, pull, and lower body workouts with core integrated into each day. It took me time to get used to this routine after my long term weight loss, but I had no problem with it after about a month and a half, and was not having any joint or ligament issues. I can definitely rule out it being caused by AI's as I just started taking those in the last week, and this has been ongoing for a number of weeks.

I'm not really sure how to proceed. I guess I can ramp down and take it easier the rest of the way, that's just kind of a shitty outcome being only halfway through. I do have Deca on hand that I could add in, but I'm hesitant to add in another compound on my first cycle, especially when I only have another 8 weeks to go. I don't have any other peptides on hand so that's not an option at the moment (going to fix that to have things for injury recovery on hand for the future). If anyone has any suggestions for things I can add to my supplement stack to help with joint and tendon support, I'm definitely open to suggestions. Or should I just pull the trigger and just add low dose Deca the rest of the way?

That happened to me when I first started. 6 months of tendonitis was cured with 2 weeks of Deca @ 200mg .
YOu can also use tb-500 , it will clear up minor pain OVERNIGHT ..I will use 5mg at a time of that stuff

 

[Jimin Marvinluder]

It could be 2 things at once, you've pushed your strength up too fast, plus rapid muscle growth tightens up muscles around joints so tendons and ligaments become pinched and misaligned.
So 2 actions to do now are twice daily stretching, morning and night, full body and do Pnf stretching because its much more effective IME than just static.
The other action is to go to 75% of your current weights and do reps until 5 reps in reserve, stop 5 reps from failure. Do this for a month. You'll still grow because you're highly anabolic from the cycle. This time next year you'll also be a lot further ahead because you won't get injured bro.
When on a cycle it's necessary to really program rep and weight progression and hold back. It sounds backwards to train much easier on cycle but I think thats that gives better results because you don't have to stop because of injury.

Thank you, this is really helpful. I think I got in my head that I had to make the most of these 16 weeks to get the best possible results and I had to just keep pushing and pushing, increasing weight, pushing rep counts, and pushed myself well beyond what my body could handle. I'm already planning to deload for at least a week, maybe two, and then I will be a lot more mindful of how much I'm pushing after that. Already making adjustments to my workout plan going forward.

 

[cousinmuscles]

What's your training program like? Exercises et.c. You said you ramped up into your current routine the past half year, but I bet the poundages have increased more during the cycle.