Lean Bulking on AAS/fat gain and nutrient partitioning

[Eddie.]

my point is, you arent leaving gains on the table, just gaining additional fat that you need to diet off wasting time you could have spent better making gains in a small surplus.

Maybe im biased by my own experiences as higher and more agressive gain rates or calorie surplusses have just left me fatter with subpar gains vs a slower rate of gain/surplus

It all comes down to what works for you and what YOU enjoy. Even if this was the most optimal which i doubt, i couldn't do it because i wouldn't enjoy it.

If i was natty, perhaps. Now i'm thinking that running all that gear, taking that GH and other stuff just to eat slightly more from my maintenance? This could be a good way if you already hit your bodyweight goal and you wanna maintain or slightly improve. In my case i'd like 10kg of muscle tissue on my frame and by having a slight surplas i guess it will take me 10 years to achieve that.

Also, that kind of approach i believe is coming more from influencers and rec lifters. If you watch actual bodybuilders they all get around 40 or even 60 pounds over their stage weight in order to add more size. I don't remember anyone who stays year round with small weight fluctuations besides perhaps John Jewett who's already somewhat close to his limit for his frame.

 

[Bandern]

Also, that kind of approach i believe is coming more from influencers and rec lifters. If you watch actual bodybuilders they all get around 40 or even 60 pounds over their stage weight in order to add more size. I don't remember anyone who stays year round with small weight fluctuations besides perhaps John Jewett who's already somewhat close to his limit for his frame.

Level of advancement has a lot to do with this too. Jordan Hutchinson putting on 60lbs in 8 months is gonna look a lot different than me putting on 60lbs.

Every growth phase I end it tighter than the last. I got kinda sloppy on my first two bulks but I don’t think I’d do it any differently if I had to start over. It may not have been *necessary* but it was definitely advantageous. I know I squeezed out every bit of growth I could and I know I can be as lean as I need to be in a few months.

 

[eery]

In my case i'd like 10kg of muscle tissue on my frame and by having a slight surplas i guess it will take me 10 years to achieve that.

same here, i just gain more fat with a bigger surplus though.

 

[Eddie.]

Level of advancement has a lot to do with this too. Jordan Hutchinson putting on 60lbs in 8 months is gonna look a lot different than me putting on 60lbs.

Every growth phase I end it tighter than the last. I got kinda sloppy on my first two bulks but I don’t think I’d do it any differently if I had to start over. It may not have been *necessary* but it was definitely advantageous. I know I squeezed out every bit of growth I could and I know I can be as lean as I need to be in a few months.

Man, especially when you start or when you're coming out of "retirement" of course it's gonna be sloppy. There's no other way around. After my last year's cut i ended up 96kg with lets say 10-12% bodyfat. In the push phase i gained 14kg and in the end i wasn't happy with my look. What it followed though this year i take it as a success. I ended my cut at 102kg (6kg more than last year) with a bodyfat level of 7-8% (which means it's not actually 6kg but more).

I'm gonna take a similar approach this year as well, with the only difference i'm gonna stretch this off season a lil more which means there's no need for 1000kcal daily surplas but a little less (i'm guessing).

If this method stops or if the excess weight is giving me side effects like high BP, sleep apnea or anything similar, i may think the other option but i guess i have room to grow before all that starts happening. Time will tell.

same here, i just gain more fat with a bigger surplus though.

Maybe it's diet related? Insulin resistance? Gear also plays a big role. If you try to gain size and rely mostly on food while using low amounts of gear (eg 250 test only), than yeah..you're gonna get fat. I'm not saying to use 3gr but i'd use at least 750mg total when pushing size. On previous off season i had 720gr carbs with 1000kcal surplas per day and my A1c was 4,9.

I get it though, if you gain more fat than muscle mass then obviously i'd be against it.

 

[Deadpool99]

Why do you think that is?

Why not ask and see what people have done and learn from their mistakes/achievements. Even when I think I have figured out and have had success, I can always improve and see what others do and how they reacted.

 

[Deadpool99]

same here, i just gain more fat with a bigger surplus though.

That's why I was exploring a lower surplus, I run higher amount of gear, but ever since I lost weight (previously 308lbs obese), I gain it insanely quick, I store it in my face and belly, so literally everyone can tell. Of course I also take measurements to also confirm fat gain.

The problem with "bulking" is when people start already too fat. If you start the off season at 15% like MANY guys do and add some muscle mass and lets say 8% of bodyfat you'll be a chubby 23% bf. If you start at 7% bodyfat and add a serious amount of muscle mass (greater than the first guy since insulin sensitivity and nutrient partinioning are way better now) and add 5-7% bodyfat you'll look like a god.

That's exactly what I am planning to do, I see many people overestimate how lean they are and go on a bulk, it's not inherently wrong. Rn I'm on a cut to reach my peak Bf%, hopefully around 7-8%, then we bulk from there. I can't wait for the bulk to start.

When it comes to food, I'm literally a Jay cutler, being obese and eating take out 5 times a day has literally killed any cravings for food. When I bulk I literally don't mind eating clean foods, like adding more rice/pasta. I have a hunger issue so I already eat clean high volume foods and I love it. Guess that will only help in the long run.

 

[Eddie.]

That's why I was exploring a lower surplus, I run higher amount of gear, but ever since I lost weight (previously 308lbs obese), I gain it insanely quick, I store it in my face and belly, so literally everyone can tell. Of course I also take measurements to also confirm fat gain.

That's exactly what I am planning to do, I see many people overestimate how lean they are and go on a bulk, it's not inherently wrong. Rn I'm on a cut to reach my peak Bf%, hopefully around 7-8%, then we bulk from there. I can't wait for the bulk to start.

When it comes to food, I'm literally a Jay cutler, being obese and eating take out 5 times a day has literally killed any cravings for food. When I bulk I literally don't mind eating clean foods, like adding more rice/pasta. I have a hunger issue so I already eat clean high volume foods and I love it. Guess that will only help in the long run.

As a ex obese of 310lb I can only say you can do it. Although I was working out (natty then) and had a good base, I was simply doing my planned clean meals and every night I had the urge to eat every crap you can imagine from savoury to sweet and back again.

It took me 4 years to reach 7-8%bf. First 2,5 years I went only from deficit to maintenance and repeat, last year was the first actual planned off season and it went good. You just have to build your metabolism back. Now on my rebound I’m eating close to 600gr of carbs and scale hasn’t moved at all.

 

[Jaxino]

I truly fail to grasp this whole “one pound per week” notion.
As bodybuilders, during off-season, our focus ought to be on performance, at least to some extent.
The scale should not be our compass; rather, our progress should be measured by the weights we lift and the repetitions we achieve. And when that progress plateaus, the solution is simple: increase carbohydrate intake.

Advancement in this sport is inherently gradual, just as the process of building muscle itself is. That is what my former coaches instilled in me. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found, and I am genuinely curious to hear others’ perspectives.

 

[Deadpool99]

That's why I started this thread, my curiosity has peaked as I plan my future bulk.

My POV:

When your enhanced on AAS + GH, the body partitions nutrients differently. You can gain lean tissue at faster rates than naturals, which is why the “1 lb/week” rule feels less relevant in this case.

As you mentioned what matters most is:
- Are you progressing in the gym?
- Is fat gain staying controlled enough to cut back later without losing muscle?

I feel like the “1 lb/week” rule is just a safety net for naturals, cuz it's harder to gauge as a natural as progress can be slow af and there is more of a need to "force" growth.

But i also understand this POV:

It's basically a trade off:
- Pro: More calories = more muscle potential (especially enhanced).
- Con: More fat to cut later, higher stress on health markers (lipids, BP, insulin).

Basically when someone tells you:
"Stop worrying about 0.5 lb per week. If you’re trying to be a bodybuilder, eat more, push harder, gain faster, and accept that some fat will come with it. You’ll diet it off later, but the muscle will stay."

To conclude:

In terms of muscle hypertrophy, both I feel are right , the key is matching the strategy to your goals, physiology, and tolerance for cutting later.

Personally my goal isn't to be 240lbs lean, my goal rn is to be jacked and looking sexy coming from a lifetime obese, also as it's the beginning on my ped journey and I can enjoy my body as well as leveraging my enhanced noobie gains/natural limit.

 

[ackmack78]

I truly fail to grasp this whole “one pound per week” notion.
As bodybuilders, during off-season, our focus ought to be on performance, at least to some extent.
The scale should not be our compass; rather, our progress should be measured by the weights we lift and the repetitions we achieve. And when that progress plateaus, the solution is simple: increase carbohydrate intake.

Advancement in this sport is inherently gradual, just as the process of building muscle itself is. That is what my former coaches instilled in me. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found, and I am genuinely curious to hear others’ perspectives.

I both agree and also disagree to a lesser extent. The scale does have to move up over time to gain a decent amount of muscle. It just doesn't need to move up every day/week. I think 1lb a week ensures max muscle while also not adding excessive fat for most people.

I'm curious what your approach is to the scale and weight gain or is it only "when progress stalls add carbs" It seems like you could stay the same weight for very long periods of time with that approach depending on how many carbs you're adding

 

[vapor77]

I truly fail to grasp this whole “one pound per week” notion.
As bodybuilders, during off-season, our focus ought to be on performance, at least to some extent.
The scale should not be our compass; rather, our progress should be measured by the weights we lift and the repetitions we achieve. And when that progress plateaus, the solution is simple: increase carbohydrate intake.

Advancement in this sport is inherently gradual, just as the process of building muscle itself is. That is what my former coaches instilled in me. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found, and I am genuinely curious to hear others’ perspectives.

You can get stronger or add more reps without getting any bigger if you don't eat enough. Powerlifters and athletes do this all the time.

 

[rxzed]

get off this board you werido natural

Start a log where you take a bunch of steroids and go on a diet of pudding and crack smoke

Someone should inform all the Olympia competitors they don't actually have to eat all that food because steroids just conjure up slabs of tissue out of thin air.

Ah, there it is. Ad hominem, strawman, and another strawman. The intentional misrepresentation of an argument that you have no intelligent response to never ceases to amaze me.

Also, to the first guy, being a crippling drug addict isn't the flex you think it is.

 

[BigDadd7]

it's the beginning on my ped journey and I can enjoy my body as well as leveraging my enhanced noobie gains/natural limit.

With all due respect, you have zero experience to really be stating things like this.

 

[Deadpool99]

With all due respect, you have zero experience to really be stating things like this.

Why is that? Is it bad to share my thoughts based on research? I can only refer to my few years of experience, the whole point of this thread wasn’t to state a fact, just opinions and to share mine and other’s POV on the subject. If I said something wrong or dumb, I’ll gladly take the criticism. I am here to learn and get better.

So if you don’t mind, can you please elaborate on your comment, as you focused on the beginner part and not the actual topics of discussion. I’d still like to hear your thoughts if you’d be generous enough to provide them.

 

[sionnach]

Ad hominem, strawman, and another strawman.

Ahh yes, another graduate of the Reddit School of Debate.

Relax bruh, sometimes it's just for teh lulz.

 

[Bandern]

Ah, there it is. Ad hominem, strawman, and another strawman. The intentional misrepresentation of an argument that you have no intelligent response to never ceases to amaze me.

Also, to the first guy, being a crippling drug addict isn't the flex you think it is.

What you and a man made of straw (?) do in the privacy of your own home is between you and god.

You don’t deserve an intelligent response. You are a bugchasing redditer.

 

[Almoister]

You can get stronger or add more reps without getting any bigger if you don't eat enough. Powerlifters and athletes do this all the time.

Nope u litterally cannot only scenario would be task spefic adaptations hence powerlifters from doing same movment over and over again that in theory doesnt work that much later on anyways so any strenght gains = Muscle gain if u did the specific task for atleast 1-2months otherwise it can be adaptation to the movment

 

[Slowww]

Start small, increase if you’re not gaining weight anymore, if your body can handle a bit more in the incremental steps, then add more calories, if not then dont.
This is something you need to assess on an individual basis. This depends on height, current amount of muscle mass, metabolism, metabolic assistance through PEDS, and thyroid hormones, amount of cardio, amount of steps, insulin resistance and your personal aptitude for lipolysis/lipogenesis with insulin & growth hormones.
Body building is an art, look at your body and what jt does, give your body what it needs.

 

[eery]

Man, especially when you start or when you're coming out of "retirement" of course it's gonna be sloppy. There's no other way around. After my last year's cut i ended up 96kg with lets say 10-12% bodyfat. In the push phase i gained 14kg and in the end i wasn't happy with my look. What it followed though this year i take it as a success. I ended my cut at 102kg (6kg more than last year) with a bodyfat level of 7-8% (which means it's not actually 6kg but more).

I'm gonna take a similar approach this year as well, with the only difference i'm gonna stretch this off season a lil more which means there's no need for 1000kcal daily surplas but a little less (i'm guessing).

If this method stops or if the excess weight is giving me side effects like high BP, sleep apnea or anything similar, i may think the other option but i guess i have room to grow before all that starts happening. Time will tell.



Maybe it's diet related? Insulin resistance? Gear also plays a big role. If you try to gain size and rely mostly on food while using low amounts of gear (eg 250 test only), than yeah..you're gonna get fat. I'm not saying to use 3gr but i'd use at least 750mg total when pushing size. On previous off season i had 720gr carbs with 1000kcal surplas per day and my A1c was 4,9.

I get it though, if you gain more fat than muscle mass then obviously i'd be against it.

When you say 1000kcal surplus, is that 1000kcal added to for example 4000 calories, and then maintained until you stop gaining, or is it a concistently adjusted 1000kcal surplus week to week or month to month depending on how your metabolism and expenditure adjutss? cuz after 6 weeks, it wouldnt be a 1000kcal surplus, it would be a smaller surplus cuz you'd be heavier and your metabolism would most likely adapt to it.

No, dont see how it would e diet related. its meticulously weighed, tracked and "clean" as people say. Dotting all the T's with 8-10 hours sleep, cardio to keep insulin sensitivity and health and performance in the gym good and so on.

Funny that you picked 3 grams cuz thats the amount of gear i ended up at during my most gear-heavy offseason and the surplus was around 300-400kcal a day if i remember correctly and the results were the same, a lot softer than youd expect, and ive mostly kept myself between 1300-2400mg a week during my other gaining phases depending on how far in it i am and how i respond and progress.

 

[Eddie.]

I truly fail to grasp this whole “one pound per week” notion.
As bodybuilders, during off-season, our focus ought to be on performance, at least to some extent.
The scale should not be our compass; rather, our progress should be measured by the weights we lift and the repetitions we achieve. And when that progress plateaus, the solution is simple: increase carbohydrate intake.

Advancement in this sport is inherently gradual, just as the process of building muscle itself is. That is what my former coaches instilled in me. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found, and I am genuinely curious to hear others’ perspectives.

I disagree on that. If you wanna get big you have to eat and gain weight and that's not debatable. Progress in the gym means only a fraction of progress regarding bodybuilding.

I've hit 270kg deadlift, 240kg squat and 180kg bench as a natty and since i got on gear i'm nowhere near that strong because i don't chase strength anymore. My physique has changed drastically though.. To be clear, from the moment i started gear and up to this day yes i'm a litle stronger, but this wasn't my goal. It just happened inevitably.

If you are obsessed with strength and progression while bodybuilding you'll end up tearing muscles and destroying your joints. I'm 37yo and doing this for 21 years, i have already a good number of injuries and i'm not planning to increase them. Not everyone has to train like jordan peters to progress. IMO strength progression is mandatory only in the first years being on the game, then when you reach a good level of strength i guess it's time to incorporate a different and smarter approach.

When you say 1000kcal surplus, is that 1000kcal added to for example 4000 calories, and then maintained until you stop gaining, or is it a concistently adjusted 1000kcal surplus week to week or month to month depending on how your metabolism and expenditure adjutss? cuz after 6 weeks, it wouldnt be a 1000kcal surplus, it would be a smaller surplus cuz you'd be heavier and your metabolism would most likely adapt to it.

No, dont see how it would e diet related. its meticulously weighed, tracked and "clean" as people say. Dotting all the T's with 8-10 hours sleep, cardio to keep insulin sensitivity and health and performance in the gym good and so on.

Funny that you picked 3 grams cuz thats the amount of gear i ended up at during my most gear-heavy offseason and the surplus was around 300-400kcal a day if i remember correctly and the results were the same, a lot softer than youd expect, and ive mostly kept myself between 1300-2400mg a week during my other gaining phases depending on how far in it i am and how i respond and progress.

A 1000kcal surplas that was increased steadily, so that amount was my peak for the last weeks and not from the start obviously. My protein and fats remained the same and i just added carbs. Started with 400gr and ended up at 720. This is like 1300kcal more but i was backing off at non training days and my weekly net surplas including my one cheat meal was something like 7000kcal.

Then my guy i don't have to say anything else, if you did what you're saying and with extra calories you accrued enough fat just find another way to progress and if that's going with small surplas then by all means, obviously it's the best thing for you. This is unfortunate but we all have to find what works individually.