Wasting your first cycle on a maintenance phase?

[Turkeybuilder]

Hello all,

Need some good advice from experienced people here who know what they’re doing. Just some background on where i’m at currently, i’m 27 years old, male, 5’7. started my AAS journey with 175mg/wk of test cyp, 875iu/wk of hcg, 600mg L carnitine daily about 5-6 months ago. Starting weight 195-200lb.

Started reta in late july and began a 12 week aggressive cut. (2 weeks left), Current weight is 169lb. Self assessment tells me i’m around 15-16% BF and sadly this is the leanest and best i’ve ever felt in my life. My arms are vascular as fuck when i’m pumped at the gym but unfortunately due to being a fatass when I was younger I have some loose skin on my midsection. 5-6 years ago I started my lifting journey and naturally lost weight from 280 > 200 over a year. “Maingained” at 190-200lb since then.

I’d like to start adding some real mass in attempt to tackle this loose skin and gaining back my strength in the gym, I can barely bench 275 now and pre cut my max was 335. But I also don’t want to put on fat and i’d love to never get past 15% BF ever again.

I’m planning a 500mg/wk test cycle as my first ever cycle for 12-16 weeks, but that being said, would I be wasting my time doing this at maintenance calories? Or would I see good progress and maintain my current BF% and build muscle?

The other side of it is I could give myself a 1-2 month rest from cutting and go on another mini cut and then “lean bulk”?

Idk I need good advice please

 

[RockyP]

The calories are going to determine the outcome of gaining / losing weight. However, while anabolic steroids don’t burn fat (can make an argument for Tren and maybe anavar being exceptions but still not really “fat burners”) having more androgens on board is always a good thing whether you’re gaining or cutting. That being said, and it took me a very long time to realize this, anabolic steroids are….anabolic. They’re designed to build tissue and prevent muscle loss in wasting syndromes like AIDS, cancer, chronic kidney disease, etc. they are NoT required for fat loss. They would be very helpful for someone who is already lean and wants to get peeled. Getting below 8% BF with any degree of above average muscle mass is swimming against the tide of evolution. Your body will want to eat that muscle because it thinks it’s starving. In that case, the PEDs will allow you to diet harder and get that low bf % while holding the muscle.

Given that, I’m not sure you need 500 test if you’re looking to recomp (it sounds like there what you’re after). If done properly you can gain 30 lbs of mostly lean tissue on your maiden voyage with 500 test. But you need to be eating a good amount of food and training hard. It doesn’t sound like that’s your goal right now. It’s a bit much to take (especially for a first cycle) if you’re not going to be pushing food. I’d go something like 300 test to see how you do. It’ll bring less water retention and other effects (hct increase, lipid effects), and it’s PLENTY to help you recomp your physique if you’re isocaloric. Said another way, I don’t think you need more than 300 test if you’re isocaloric (ie not dieting hard on the way down or trying to mass). The increased androgen load will help with nutrient partitioning and push you more towards LBM and away from fat gain (assuming your estrogen is in range).

 

[Turkeybuilder]

The calories are going to determine the outcome of gaining / losing weight. However, while anabolic steroids don’t burn fat (can make an argument for Tren and maybe anavar being exceptions but still not really “fat burners”) having more androgens on board is always a good thing whether you’re gaining or cutting. That being said, and it took me a very long time to realize this, anabolic steroids are….anabolic. They’re designed to build tissue and prevent muscle loss in wasting syndromes like AIDS, cancer, chronic kidney disease, etc. they are NoT required for fat loss. They would be very helpful for someone who is already lean and wants to get peeled. Getting below 8% BF with any degree of above average muscle mass is swimming against the tide of evolution. Your body will want to eat that muscle because it thinks it’s starving. In that case, the PEDs will allow you to diet harder and get that low bf % while holding the muscle.

Given that, I’m not sure you need 500 test if you’re looking to recomp (it sounds like there what you’re after). If done properly you can gain 30 lbs of mostly lean tissue on your maiden voyage with 500 test. But you need to be eating a good amount of food and training hard. It doesn’t sound like that’s your goal right now. It’s a bit much to take (especially for a first cycle) if you’re not going to be pushing food. I’d go something like 300 test to see how you do. It’ll bring less water retention and other effects (hct increase, lipid effects), and it’s PLENTY to help you recomp your physique if you’re isocaloric. Said another way, I don’t think you need more than 300 test if you’re isocaloric (ie not dieting hard on the way down or trying to mass). The increased androgen load will help with nutrient partitioning and push you more towards LBM and away from fat gain (assuming your estrogen is in range).

Sad. honestly this isn’t what I wanted to hear but maybe it’s what I need to hear.

In a perfect world i’d love to come off this cut and be able to maintain this BF% and put on a decent amount of lean mass with my first cycle but it doesnt sound like that’s realistic.

300 test is an interesting idea for recomping

 

[RockyP]

Sad. honestly this isn’t what I wanted to hear but maybe it’s what I need to hear.

In a perfect world i’d love to come off this cut and be able to maintain this BF% and put on a decent amount of lean mass with my first cycle but it doesnt sound like that’s realistic.

300 test is an interesting idea for recomping

It is totally possible but would likely require using something like Tren (you can actually gain lean tissue in a slight deficit on Tren) which is obviously not what you want to be doing first time around.

 

[Turkeybuilder]

It is totally possible but would likely require using something like Tren (you can actually gain lean tissue in a slight deficit on Tren) which is obviously not what you want to be doing first time around.

Yes definitely not haha

 

[Bandern]

I’m planning a 500mg/wk test cycle as my first ever cycle for 12-16 weeks, but that being said, would I be wasting my time doing this at maintenance calories?

Yea pretty much

Don’t run your first cycle until you’re ready to eat in a surplus. You’ll grow like a weed. You’d probably build some muscle eating at maintenance but you only get 1 first cycle, squeeze everything you can get out of it.

 

[220]

Assuming you have been training consistently for your lifting career my guess is that the newbie gains are over. The muscle you add from this point(at TRT levels) will be slow.
As you know, a caloric surplus is much more favorable for adding additional muscle tissue. I like the idea of bumping up to 300mg a week once you reach a point when you are willing to commit to a surplus. The surplus doesn’t need to be drastic, but significant enough that your weekly BW average is increasing.
I prefer to go into a maintenance phase after a bulk for at least 4-6 weeks before starting a deficit again. After the maintenance phase you can reassess and decide what steps to take next.

 

[Turkeybuilder]

Yea pretty much

Don’t run your first cycle until you’re ready to eat in a surplus. You’ll grow like a weed. You’d probably build some muscle eating at maintenance but you only get 1 first cycle, squeeze everything you can get out of it.

fair enough. Thank you for the advice

 

[Turkeybuilder]

Assuming you have been training consistently for your lifting career my guess is that the newbie gains are over. The muscle you add from this point(at TRT levels) will be slow.
As you know, a caloric surplus is much more favorable for adding additional muscle tissue. I like the idea of bumping up to 300mg a week once you reach a point when you are willing to commit to a surplus. The surplus doesn’t need to be drastic, but significant enough that your weekly BW average is increasing.
I prefer to go into a maintenance phase after a bulk for at least 4-6 weeks before starting a deficit again. After the maintenance phase you can reassess and decide what steps to take next.

Newbie gains are far gone. I think i am leaning more towards maintaining for a few weeks after my cut and then going on another 4-6 week mini cut. I cant afford to go on a “bulk” at current BF %, i dont need more fat right now

 

[Eddie.]

I did my first cycle in a deficit, people told me that it wasn't the best idea and i knew it myself based on what i've read but i did it and not regret it. Sure, it didn't help build much mass being in deficit but it definitely made the process viable, i was in low calories and i still felt alive, mood and libido were great, lifts were great and i definitely didn't end up looking like a saint after ditching the fat.

The perfect scenario is to start PED's on a off season and obviously start lean, as much as you can. 500 test for 12-16 weeks and you'll do some serious job. There's just no reasoning to start gear in maintenance, most people when go to maintenance drops anabolics and goes with just a higher TRT test dosage.

If you feel you need to do maintenance just do it for a while and then start a calorie deficit to lean out and when you finish start the test to put some nice muscle mass.

 

[dinfar1337]

depends.

i was in a deficit.

the aas still managed to put 15kg on me, first time i took it. ended up dropping around 10kg after so put on 5kg muscle mass from first cycle for free just by the response of aas in a deficit, the real number is probably lower just a rough estimate. i also ended up injuring my chest so. i still remember it vividly. started my first cycle on 1st december, was injured by the 7th january from the rapid muscle growth in 2020-2021.

my lifts even incline dumb bell press etc just one day jumped all in strength +10kg

would probably have put more on in a surplus. dont waste your perfect chance for most muscle growth in your life you will get in a small period of time in a deficit. now i dont even put much water weight on going from cruise>blast.

now my goal is to put atleast 5kg of muscle mass on a after each bulk + cut. very ambitious. i would also classify myself as having good genetics.

 

[Turkeybuilder]

I did my first cycle in a deficit, people told me that it wasn't the best idea and i knew it myself based on what i've read but i did it and not regret it. Sure, it didn't help build much mass being in deficit but it definitely made the process viable, i was in low calories and i still felt alive, mood and libido were great, lifts were great and i definitely didn't end up looking like a saint after ditching the fat.

The perfect scenario is to start PED's on a off season and obviously start lean, as much as you can. 500 test for 12-16 weeks and you'll do some serious job. There's just no reasoning to start gear in maintenance, most people when go to maintenance drops anabolics and goes with just a higher TRT test dosage.

If you feel you need to do maintenance just do it for a while and then start a calorie deficit to lean out and when you finish start the test to put some nice muscle mass.

Did you put on any reasonable amount of muscle while also in a deficit, or did you mostly just retain all of your muscle while losing fat? Yes it seems like the perfect world scenario is to start your blast lean and bulk up. The problem is im 15-16% BF and dont want to be any fatter than this and i’m already towards the end of a cut.

 

[Turkeybuilder]

depends.

i was in a deficit.

the aas still managed to put 15kg on me, first time i took it. ended up dropping around 10kg after so put on 5kg muscle mass from first cycle for free just by the response of aas in a deficit, the real number is probably lower just a rough estimate. i also ended up injuring my chest so. i still remember it vividly. started my first cycle on 1st december, was injured by the 7th january from the rapid muscle growth in 2020-2021.

my lifts even incline dumb bell press etc just one day jumped all in strength +10kg

would probably have put more on in a surplus. dont waste your perfect chance for most muscle growth in your life you will get in a small period of time in a deficit. now i dont even put much water weight on going from cruise>blast.

now my goal is to put atleast 5kg of muscle mass on a after each bulk + cut. very ambitious. i would also classify myself as having good genetics.

You were in a deficit and put on 15kg of mass? How did you lose 10kg after if you were cutting and then came off of the cut lol

 

[dinfar1337]

You were in a deficit and put on 15kg of mass? How did you lose 10kg after if you were cutting and then came off of the cut lol

i didnt stop cutting when going back to trt

put 15kg on those 10 weeks, then when i went back to trt from my 500mg test>140mg test i dropped 10kg on scale.

something like 75kg > 90kg > back to 80kg when going back to trt.

kept cutting till i was like 73kg? started bulking again and began 2nd cycle then at 82kg put instant 5kg of waterweight on in 2-3 weeks probably ended up reaching 90kg again 2nd cycle at some point.

the effect is way less pronounced now. i put maybe 2-3kg of water going from cruise>blast.

i imagine alot of the weight you put on first cycle is just water weight from no testosterone > testosterone. thats why alot of guys think they put on 20kg of muscle mass first cycle lmao.

 

[Eddie.]

Did you put on any reasonable amount of muscle while also in a deficit, or did you mostly just retain all of your muscle while losing fat? Yes it seems like the perfect world scenario is to start your blast lean and bulk up. The problem is im 15-16% BF and dont want to be any fatter than this and i’m already towards the end of a cut.

I think i did put some lean mass yes, my arms and legs circumference remained the same but i got leaner with veins etc, i dropped around 15kg and my lowest was 95,5 i think with probably 12% bodyfat.

Afterwards, i did a proper off cycle with gear followed by a cruise and then cutting again and the outcome was effing awesome. I managed to go from 110kg peak bulk to 101,5 peak cut and my bodyfat was somewhere at 7%. That's why probably most guys saying it has a greater benefit for off season.

I understand your case and my honest opinion is to just wait a little longer, do a maintenance phase and then a cut again (either long normal cut or minicut to just shave the most of it) and hop on gear. The changes you'll see they're gonna make it worth it. In my case if i would just do one cycle and then PCT, given the outcome of my first cycle while on deficit i'd probably not be pleased, but i had decide to not come off again anyways.

 

[Turkeybuilder]

i didnt stop cutting when going back to trt

put 15kg on those 10 weeks, then when i went back to trt from my 500mg test>140mg test i dropped 10kg on scale.

something like 75kg > 90kg > back to 80kg when going back to trt.

kept cutting till i was like 73kg? started bulking again and began 2nd cycle then at 82kg put instant 5kg of waterweight on in 2-3 weeks probably ended up reaching 90kg again 2nd cycle at some point.

the effect is way less pronounced now. i put maybe 2-3kg of water going from cruise>blast.

i imagine alot of the weight you put on first cycle is just water weight from no testosterone > testosterone. thats why alot of guys think they put on 20kg of muscle mass first cycle lmao.

Ahh okay that makes sense

 

[Turkeybuilder]

I think i did put some lean mass yes, my arms and legs circumference remained the same but i got leaner with veins etc, i dropped around 15kg and my lowest was 95,5 i think with probably 12% bodyfat.

Afterwards, i did a proper off cycle with gear followed by a cruise and then cutting again and the outcome was effing awesome. I managed to go from 110kg peak bulk to 101,5 peak cut and my bodyfat was somewhere at 7%. That's why probably most guys saying it has a greater benefit for off season.

I understand your case and my honest opinion is to just wait a little longer, do a maintenance phase and then a cut again (either long normal cut or minicut to just shave the most of it) and hop on gear. The changes you'll see they're gonna make it worth it. In my case if i would just do one cycle and then PCT, given the outcome of my first cycle while on deficit i'd probably not be pleased, but i had decide to not come off again anyways.

Hmm so it sounds like its not really worth using a first test cycle on a cut or maintenance. Sucks i’ll have to wait a little longer to actually run the cycle but if I really won’t be able to maintain my current bf % and add size then its not worth it. I dont ever want to go past 15-16% bf again

 

[RockyP]

Hmm so it sounds like its not really worth using a first test cycle on a cut or maintenance. Sucks i’ll have to wait a little longer to actually run the cycle but if I really won’t be able to maintain my current bf % and add size then its not worth it. I dont ever want to go past 15-16% bf again

The leaner you are when you start a bulk, especially a PED assisted bulk, the MUCH better off you’ll be. The world is full of fat permabulkers taking gear and dealing with all sorts of health issues due to being too fucking fat.

 

[dinfar1337]

Ahh okay that makes sense

like i said i think myself i have good response genes to androgens. i put on alot of water weight and deal with bunch of bullshit related to androgenic side effects.

other guys ive spoken with put around 5-10kg on first cycle of water weight.

if their scale even increases more than 10kg

 

[newguy2]

I'm a rookie but my current experience might be helpful. I started my first cycle around 15%bf.

Started at 400mg/week. Not in week 15 at 600mg.

I've gained about 16 pounds, been pushing for the whole time but doing so systematically. Surprisingly my condition has held the while time. My abs even started to show more half way through while still gaining weight.

The last couple weeks I've got loose with the diet so feeling a little fluffy in the midsection.

My one let take away is that I should have started leaner. I was eager to get going. But in hindsight being around 10% would have given a lot more room to play with vs sort of being on the edge of limit of bf I'd like to hit.

It's been a great cycle but next time I'll definitely cut down longer.