MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
muscledudee
New Member
use the right amount of ai bro. using nolvadex is worse! do bloodwork and allow if u dont know how dm me
fino
New Member
pin daily
BALLISTIC
Member
Tamoxifen isn't AI. It's a SERM. While it acts as an antagonist (blocker) in breast tissue. Tamoxifen doesn’t lower estrogen levels, but it blocks estrogen signaling in certain tissues, and that’s why people often feel like garbage on it.
frofrank
New Member
None of this made sense hombre.
1. Nolva should be used as a PCT tool, its not an AI and shouldn't be used to estrogen or gyno control really
2. Aromasin is your best bet to control estrogen as far as AIs go, however if you want to control it without one look into primo/EQ
3.Raloxifine should be used for controlling gyno, the superior to tamoxifin(nolva), and again if you want to control gyno without serms look into mast
4. Study your playbook more before messing with your hormones
hellerhiwater
Member
i feel like using nolva for gyno is plastered all over the internet. so much so that i can parrot the protocol ive seen a bajillion times; 40 mg/day for the first 2 weeks, 20 mg/day for the second two weeks.
is that outdated bro science? is there any truth to it at all? if not, what are the better options for controlling gyno on test before it "hardens" and turns into an obligatory surgery if you want it gone?
also, i remember reading that ralox had a steeper list of potential very bad side effects. stuff like dvt/clots, bloody urine, and some other thing like maybe heart-related i cant remember. how badly misinformed am i?
frofrank
New Member
Yes absolute truth to it, its still a viable option for gyno control but it will lower your IGF1 levels significantly whereas ralox does not affect IGF1 at all making it the superior for our intended use.
AFAIK ralox can actually reverse gyno where tamox stops it in its tracks but do your own due diligence there.
Same to you as OP, read the estrogen handbook I linked. Mast is also a well known gyno controller.
Unfortunately I do not have an answer for this, im sure just like anything else its user to user. See what works best for you.
hellerhiwater
Member
funnily enough that e2 handbook and the r/steroids "wiki" is where i started, but got to enough forums that constantly clowned on and dismissed any/all reddit info that i kinda struck it from the mental record.
thank you for the info bro, im fat so its kinda difficult for me to tell if i have gyno or not. theres no hard lumps, but my nips def look "puffy" but again, im so fat that its impossible to tell. tamox was going to be my go-to so im glad i found your post. thank you again for sharing it.
BALLISTIC
Member
@hellerhiwater
You're not outdated at all dude. Everything you stated is reiterated over and over but I think as time goes on with healthy information we'll naturally gravitate towards truth in science.
40 mg/day for 2 weeks, then 20 mg/day for 2 weeks for instance...This didn’t come out of nowhere. It came from older clinical use of tamoxifen for pubertal gynecomastia and breast cancer, not from modern AAS induced gyno management. It was simply adopted for lack of knowledge. Many men respond just as well to 10 to 20 mg/day, especially if the gyno is caught early.
If aromatization is unchecked, SERMs are just putting a bandage on a gushing wound. Tamoxifen is studied well, effective only very early, less lip negatives, and since say better tolerated. On the other hand it def has partial estrogen agonism in liver, can raise SHBG, and is overall less effective once gyno matures. Ralox has much stronger ER antagonism in breast tissue with better data for size reduction rapidly, not just symptom control, and it's been reported to have less hepatic estrogenic activity. In the other hand it has a shorter half life so it needs consistent dosing while def feeling harsher. Not ideal long term n comparison. Personally if it's early Ralox will hammer it away.
Your right about risk Ralox is def a higher risk for blood clots.
You're not outdated at all dude. Everything you stated is reiterated over and over but I think as time goes on with healthy information we'll naturally gravitate towards truth in science.
40 mg/day for 2 weeks, then 20 mg/day for 2 weeks for instance...This didn’t come out of nowhere. It came from older clinical use of tamoxifen for pubertal gynecomastia and breast cancer, not from modern AAS induced gyno management. It was simply adopted for lack of knowledge. Many men respond just as well to 10 to 20 mg/day, especially if the gyno is caught early.
If aromatization is unchecked, SERMs are just putting a bandage on a gushing wound. Tamoxifen is studied well, effective only very early, less lip negatives, and since say better tolerated. On the other hand it def has partial estrogen agonism in liver, can raise SHBG, and is overall less effective once gyno matures. Ralox has much stronger ER antagonism in breast tissue with better data for size reduction rapidly, not just symptom control, and it's been reported to have less hepatic estrogenic activity. In the other hand it has a shorter half life so it needs consistent dosing while def feeling harsher. Not ideal long term n comparison. Personally if it's early Ralox will hammer it away.
Your right about risk Ralox is def a higher risk for blood clots.
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Andrewthatguy
Member
Damn I wish I would have seen this pre cycle. Gonna have to stock up on some more meds.
frofrank
New Member
Yeah idk alot of old heads stuck in their ways in the forums lmfao, nolva is cheaper also so thats always a stick.
Feel you brotha, I once weigh damn near 380 pounds, I cant tell what anything is on my titties tbh, reccomendation would be to take pictures if you do get lumps and document their size after a week of serm protocol.
I'm just a random man on the internet that knows as much as the next autism filled meathead, but why the F--- are you taking tren before knowing this/having these. Be careful homie
Andrewthatguy
Member
What dose raloxifine should be taken?
BALLISTIC
Member
Between 30 to 60mg daily. Again shorter half life so target the same timeframe daily. Or split it evening throughout the day for best results.
Start lower adjust from there.
hellerhiwater
Member
dude. thank you so much. you're quickly becoming my favorite person on this forum. you're such a legend bro, a beacon of light in this dim dark world!
BALLISTIC
Member
Man thank you for not being a TikTok twerp and wasting my time. I'm 41 years old and started this game around 29 or 30 I forget. I've learned a bunch from many others wiser than me and remain a student myself. I've blasted stupid, I've blasted safe, I've learned my lessons and even cold stopped to have children, you learn more from trials and tribulations. Haha
Thanks for compliment.
Control Estrogen for what ?
What are you using on gear and what’s your E2 readings ?
Most do not do blood work, and just “ I FEEL…”
Jojoejoe
New Member
man i feel you on that nolva usually makes me feel like an absolute zombie with zero sex drive its honestly the worst. if youve crushed your estro before your brain is probably just traumatized and overreacting to anything that touches those levels now. honestly if you want to avoid AIs and serms maybe try just pinning more often like everyday or every other day to keep your levels super stable and stop the big spikes that cause the gyno in the first place. some guys swear by masteron or primo as a "natural" way to keep things in check without using harsh pills but yeah stay away from the nukes if you're that sensitive!
Andrewthatguy
Member
So do you still get the lowering of e2 people talk about with mast when you’re doing lower doses? I’m talking like 100mg, I only wanna use it for e2 management now and then save the rest for down the road if I wanna end up running it.
Andrewthatguy
Member
Wait, how long into your journey with steroids did you stop to have kids? Is there anything specific you did besides just pct off?
BALLISTIC
Member
Mast or any DHT will add the antagonism to breast tissue and should be a staple in all cycles, DHT reduces how many estrogen receptors exist in breast tissue. Dosing will be individual but with mast for me I don't start lower than 400 and that's always been. It may work at 100 but I don't want to BS you and state that as I don't know for certain...from my experience.
Haha a couple years, I tried PCT and nothing. Eventually I went through a full on fertility clinic. We attempted low trt doses and I still had mutated sperm. Eventually came completely off took an assortment of prescribed meds and got lucky. Important factor I had my first kid before AAS, my second and third taking a break with fertility clinic. My wife and I tried again later doing exactly the same and I'm unable. My last attempt was around 4 years ago. Gave up and happy I have 3 healthy minis dude.
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