My Visit with HAN and Dr. Overbeck

[Crazy Crew]

Truely sad what this forum had digressed into.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Truely sad what this forum had digressed into.

Yes, isn't it, when we have posters like you giving harmful and poor advice. You are sad. Why don't you get a urine test for a naive quotient? Urine test - that is a good one! LOL

 

[Crazy Crew]

Yes, isn't it, when we have posters like you giving harmful and poor advice. You are sad. Why don't you get a urine test for a naive quotient? Urine test - that is a good one! LOL

Not to worry, you've got too much class for me. I feel ashamed having to try to help anyone here since there is obviously no room for my opinions. Sure maybe I have gotten some wrong info. But rather than discuss, you accuse, and rant like a teenager in heat. I feel sorry for the ones who truly need help and find thier way here first.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I have proof of this..I was one of the naive guys who actually fell for HAN's strange and amateur practices..He offered me a phone consultation. I will not lie, it was free and at the time I thought he was doing this out of the kindness of his heart. After listening to him rant about methylation issues and trying to convince me that the phytates in my oatmeal were the root of all my problems he told me quote "Oh and be sure you put a thread up on Meso explaining how much I have helped you and how I donated my time." The real joke would have been actually paying him. It was bad enough wasting 2 hours of my day.

Fine mob you keep changing your mind more than I fart in a day then may be you see the fact I was looking at potential factors that could have been a play in your issue. But if you do remember that i did mention how over training, under and imbalanced eating., and how it impact HPTA was the main issue. If you call me a charitan then call DR O on as well and hes been a MD for over 20 years and highly respected in our area.
Scalley who was the one that has lost their medical licensce ? Yes you have contribruted to the field with great research on tesosterone, but you will always be remembered with that black mark behind on your sheet. So if you got to rip people apart need to take a good look in the mirror before doing so. Its about time to grow up and god forbit if people seek advice from you acting like this..GOD HELP THEM.. I did not put nick up to this as he did this at his own free will and is gratful that we are atleast trying to help get him back to balance.

 

[chemman]

I'm no doctor, but by the looks of those pictures, I would imagine that a good dose of testosterone and probably some estrogen control is what this cat requires. Did you guys even test Estradiol? HAN don't answer [HIPPA] .

He has female fat distribution and man boobs and you're giving him a substance that converts largely to estradiol?

Get the T flowing, keep the estrogen down, and watch that fat melt.

 

[m_ob]

Fine mob you keep changing your mind more than I fart in a day then may be you see the fact I was looking at potential factors that could have been a play in your issue. But if you do remember that i did mention how over training, under and imbalanced eating., and how it impact HPTA was the main issue. If you call me a charitan then call DR O on as well and hes been a MD for over 20 years and highly respected in our area.
Scalley who was the one that has lost their medical licensce ? Yes you have contribruted to the field with great research on tesosterone, but you will always be remembered with that black mark behind on your sheet. So if you got to rip people apart need to take a good look in the mirror before doing so. Its about time to grow up and god forbit if people seek advice from you acting like this..GOD HELP THEM.. I did not put nick up to this as he did this at his own free will and is gratful that we are atleast trying to help get him back to balance.

"charlatan" is what you were looking for, and I think Scally is just trying to prevent any further misleading preformed by anyone on the forum..

 

[nickatnite]

Wow, the testosterone is soaring on this thread. But anyway to clear some stuff up there Dr. Scally... HAN did not put me up to it. In the beginning he told me I should create a log with my progress so that other members can give me input. I respectfully declined and told him I will only come on here and post if I make progress. After all, advertising sells products & services. However, you didn't get your degree in marketing, you got it in medicine. I put up my post because I started to see a positive change in the way I felt and "I" decided I wanted to share my progress with everyone and let people give me their input. After all we all need to work together or none of us will get anywhere. Don't think for one minute if HAN told me to do the wrong thing I wouldn't post. Because I would. I'm at a point now where I've had enough people mislead me and I will make it my job to make those aware of them. I appreciate everything all of you say and I read everything and take it all with a grain of salt. I just wish that you Dr. Scally weren't such a rude person. I mean I understand you have certain beliefs, but if you disagree with what HAN is doing tell me how YOU would treat me.. or What YOU think. Instead you just go after everyone like the board went after your medical license. What's up with that? I came to this site for answers like everyone else because I wasn't getting them from other Dr's I went to see. Yes HAN isn't a Dr (yet) but his partner Dr. Overbeck is. And last time I met with Dr. O he really seemed to know his stuff. To the person who asked about estrogen we checked estrogen. Estradiol sensitive, and estradiol-17-beta or whatever its called. Everything came up fine. It seems my biggest issue is insulin resistance and we are trying to resolve that. It looks like it is hormonal related. I have made all the other necessary changes that I could make and I'm still putting on the pounds. I've also had colonscopy/endoscope due to the death of my mom from colon cancer. I really want to get better and I'm working my ass of trying to make that happen. If you want to help and have insight please share.. But don't turn this into a pissing contest. Thanks everyone

 

[rburgandy]

Yes, isn't it, when we have posters like you giving harmful and poor advice. You are sad. Why don't you get a urine test for a naive quotient? Urine test - that is a good one! LOL

Do you have any experience with urine? What makes you have such a negative view of it?

For me I use both blood and urine. And I have actually found urine to give a more accurate reflection of how I felt.

As for HAN, he at leasts attempts to help people on here. The one problem I seem to see with him is that whatever seems to be working for him at the time he forces on his patient.

Like he has been saying how much better he is doing on DHEA, now he has Nick on that only. Where it seems pretty obvious that he needs more, most likely some form of T.

Also now he doesn't use Arimidex so he doesn't think anybody needs it. Or that everybody has gut problems like himself.

Please take no offense to this HAN. Don't mean it a rude way, just something I noticed.

 

[hardasnails1973]

80% of the people walking thorugh the door have some sort of gut inbalances or digestive issue which has been verifed later through stool samples, food allergie testing, or just elimination diet, just symptoms they may have through GI. As for armidex if testosterone properly adjusted as well as other factors then it should not be needed but if it is prescibed with out hestitation. I took TD dhea years ago and I had so much other crap going one i did not know what was working but I was lean and big as a house which I am now again only thing changed what adding TD dhea and lower my t levels and getting off armidex which I had been on for over 4 years. Since making these changes I am bigger harder leaner then every before and have 80% of symptoms cleared. People are put on things through medical validation not just randomized trial. There is a reason behind every protocol and if it does not work then changes are made immediatly not 3 months down the road.

 

[m_ob]

"Hidden" Allergies
Many dubious practitioners claim that food allergies may be responsible for virtually any symptom a person can have. In support of this claim—which is false—they administer various tests purported to identify offending foods. The most notorious such test is cytotoxic testing. This test is performed by observing what happens to a patient's white blood cells when they are placed on microscope slides containing dried food extracts. The test results are then used to explain the patient's symptoms and to design a "personalized diet program" that includes vitamins and minerals—sold by those administering the test. Controlled studies have never shown cytotoxic testing to be reliable, and some studies have found it to be highly unreliable.

Another test claimed to locate "hidden allergies" is the ELISA/ACT, developed by Russell Jaffe, M.D., Ph.D., and performed by Serammune Physicians Lab (SPL), of Reston, Virginia, which Jaffe directs. This test is performed by culturing the patient's lymphocytes and seeing how they react to up to 300 foods, minerals, preservatives, and other environmental substances. After the test is completed, the practitioner (typically a chiropractor) recommends dietary modification and supplements. Although the ELISA/ACT test can assess the levels of certain immune responses, these are not necessarily related to allergy and have nothing whatsoever to do with a person's need for supplements. Moreover, many of the symptoms listed in an SPL brochure are unrelated to allergy and are not appropriately treated with supplement products.

The correct way to assess a suspected food allergy or intolerance is to begin with a careful record of food intake and symptoms over a period of several weeks. If significant symptoms occur, the next step should be to see whether avoiding suspected foods for several weeks prevents possible allergy-related symptoms from recurring. If so, the suspected foods could be reintroduced one at a time to see whether symptoms can be reproduced. However, if the symptoms include hives, vomiting, swollen throat, wheezing, or other difficulty in breathing, continued self-testing could be dangerous, so an allergist should be consulted.

Be Wary of "Fad" Diagnoses

 

[BBC3]

I was just peeking in on this thread. I have not read every bit so apologies. But I would like to back up a bit. While thats clearly a large set of Man-teet (no offense intended). ARE YOU POSITIVE THAT IS GYNO????

I have come to the understanding that "gyno" is the development of "female associated", "breast tissue".?? So that would mean ducts and glands. I have no chest, but I do have experience racking my wifes titties around. Clearly breast tissue has its own "substance" with a clearly defined mass of its own. IT IS NOT SIMPLY FATTY TISSUE. You simply look overweight to me, and with a super preponderance to hold chest mass.....! Based on your excess body fat, if you lost the weight, it looks to me like you would have no chest fat!??!?!!?!??? SO whats the deal?

Do you feel nodules, glands, plumbing, etc? Or is it just fat? Has there ever been leakage? Has a knowledgeable internal MD diagnosed gyno.?

Based on your body fat, I just cant see how that would stay if you lost down to 20% BF??

Latest pics... Pretty depressing.. :/ Long way to recovery.

 

[hardasnails1973]

"Hidden" Allergies
Many dubious practitioners claim that food allergies may be responsible for virtually any symptom a person can have. In support of this claim—which is false—they administer various tests purported to identify offending foods. The most notorious such test is cytotoxic testing. This test is performed by observing what happens to a patient's white blood cells when they are placed on microscope slides containing dried food extracts. The test results are then used to explain the patient's symptoms and to design a "personalized diet program" that includes vitamins and minerals—sold by those administering the test. Controlled studies have never shown cytotoxic testing to be reliable, and some studies have found it to be highly unreliable.

Another test claimed to locate "hidden allergies" is the ELISA/ACT, developed by Russell Jaffe, M.D., Ph.D., and performed by Serammune Physicians Lab (SPL), of Reston, Virginia, which Jaffe directs. This test is performed by culturing the patient's lymphocytes and seeing how they react to up to 300 foods, minerals, preservatives, and other environmental substances. After the test is completed, the practitioner (typically a chiropractor) recommends dietary modification and supplements. Although the ELISA/ACT test can assess the levels of certain immune responses, these are not necessarily related to allergy and have nothing whatsoever to do with a person's need for supplements. Moreover, many of the symptoms listed in an SPL brochure are unrelated to allergy and are not appropriately treated with supplement products.

The correct way to assess a suspected food allergy or intolerance is to begin with a careful record of food intake and symptoms over a period of several weeks. If significant symptoms occur, the next step should be to see whether avoiding suspected foods for several weeks prevents possible allergy-related symptoms from recurring. If so, the suspected foods could be reintroduced one at a time to see whether symptoms can be reproduced. However, if the symptoms include hives, vomiting, swollen throat, wheezing, or other difficulty in breathing, continued self-testing could be dangerous, so an allergist should be consulted.

Be Wary of "Fad" Diagnoses

We use standard quest and lab corp panel do not even venture into the abstract world of complex food testing.
Tell that to severe people that ones foods where Identified and removed symptoms got better. I use the elmination diet as first wave with patients especially people with GI issues. I also use muscle testing to identify potential food allergies which gives me a heads up on what food be a problem.

 

[m_ob]

We use standard quest and lab corp panel do not even venture into the abstract world of complex food testing.
Tell that to severe people that ones foods where Identified and removed symptoms got better. I use the elmination diet as first wave with patients especially people with GI issues. I also use muscle testing to identify potential food allergies which gives me a heads up on what food be a problem.

That article was meant to explain what to watch out for..not for you to rant on why it's not quackery.

 

[nickatnite]

I was just peeking in on this thread. I have not read every bit so apologies. But I would like to back up a bit. While thats clearly a large set of Man-teet (no offense intended). ARE YOU POSITIVE THAT IS GYNO????

I have come to the understanding that "gyno" is the development of "female associated", "breast tissue".?? So that would mean ducts and glands. I have no chest, but I do have experience racking my wifes titties around. Clearly breast tissue has its own "substance" with a clearly defined mass of its own. IT IS NOT SIMPLY FATTY TISSUE. You simply look overweight to me, and with a super preponderance to hold chest mass.....! Based on your excess body fat, if you lost the weight, it looks to me like you would have no chest fat!??!?!!?!??? SO whats the deal?

Do you feel nodules, glands, plumbing, etc? Or is it just fat? Has there ever been leakage? Has a knowledgeable internal MD diagnosed gyno.?

Based on your body fat, I just cant see how that would stay if you lost down to 20% BF??

Who said it was GYNO? I've felt my breasts and I don't feel anything irregular. My DR also took a look and said its just fat. The biggest problem is I had hidden insulin resistance which apparently is due to my hormonal imbalance. My diet & other levels are perfect.. I just started DHEA cream and going to increase my physical activity even more so hopefully I will burn fat, lessen insulin resistance and give my test a boost. I'm thankful I don't have GYNO. Thanks for looking out BBC! I appreciate it.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Who said it was GYNO? I've felt my breasts and I don't feel anything irregular. My DR also took a look and said its just fat. The biggest problem is I had hidden insulin resistance which apparently is due to my hormonal imbalance. My diet & other levels are perfect.. I just started DHEA cream and going to increase my physical activity even more so hopefully I will burn fat, lessen insulin resistance and give my test a boost. I'm thankful I don't have GYNO. Thanks for looking out BBC! I appreciate it.

From the pictures, I would say you are right. It is more like Pseudogynecomastia.

Gynecomastia is the development of abnormally large mammary glands in males resulting in breast enlargement.

Pseudogynecomastia is composed not of glandular tissue, but of adipose tissue. It looks much like real gynecomastia but requires different treatment. Exercise and diet may be effective in combating pseudogynecomastia. Only if this regimen is unsuccessful should surgery be considered. This is generally the only type of gynecomastia which can be improved with liposuction, but excision may be indicated in some cases. This is also known as "false Gynecomastia" and is often attributed by obesity whereby insulin interacts with an excess of sugars or certain carbohydrates, namely those of which that have been processed. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia"]Gynecomastia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Gynecomastia_001.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Gynecomastia_001.jpg/230px-Gynecomastia_001.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/2/2e/Gynecomastia_001.jpg/230px-Gynecomastia_001.jpg[/ame]

 

[BBC3]

Thanks for the clarification.

To the OP. Like I said I have not read too much back. But I can tell you that you are wasting your time with dhea cream. this is a master hormone that would appear only to activate in circumstances I dont know. It seems to have an effect for about a month and then nothing. Very estrogenic in males, but it covers me in zits for 3 weeks before it poops out. And I am not sure the overall effect either, or if I care to take it again.

If you are low TT due to estrogen/fat shut down. Then get an AI. and throw some injectible test on the fire at TRT levels. This will be the only help.. Still you will have to be working hard and eating right, and you will still go up 3-5% body fat in first two weeks before leveling off.

From the pictures, I would say you are right. It is more like Pseudogynecomastia.

Gynecomastia is the development of abnormally large mammary glands in males resulting in breast enlargement.

Pseudogynecomastia is composed not of glandular tissue, but of adipose tissue. It looks much like real gynecomastia but requires different treatment. Exercise and diet may be effective in combating pseudogynecomastia. Only if this regimen is unsuccessful should surgery be considered. This is generally the only type of gynecomastia which can be improved with liposuction, but excision may be indicated in some cases. This is also known as "false Gynecomastia" and is often attributed by obesity whereby insulin interacts with an excess of sugars or certain carbohydrates, namely those of which that have been processed. Gynecomastia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TheOldFart]

Thanks for the clarification.

To the OP. Like I said I have not read too much back. But I can tell you that you are wasting your time with dhea cream. this is a master hormone that would appear only to activate in circumstances I dont know. It seems to have an effect for about a month and then nothing. Very estrogenic in males, but it covers me in zits for 3 weeks before it poops out. And I am not sure the overall effect either, or if I care to take it again.

If you are low TT due to estrogen/fat shut down. Then get an AI. and throw some injectible test on the fire at TRT levels. This will be the only help.. Still you will have to be working hard and eating right, and you will still go up 3-5% body fat in first two weeks before leveling off.

Basically the same for me. I tried taking 62 mg of DHEA daily before I started on TRT. It helped for a while. Depression and sexual got better, but then started to go back again. I still took it after starting Androgel and my E2 kept climbing. I found a published study over a year ago that showed that it raises T in women and the T level stays up. However, in the men in the study, it raised T for a couple of months and then T went back down and E2 went up. I have tried to find the report again, but have not been able to. I can't find a bookmark for it either or a copy in my health folder on the hard drive. It was in pdf format.

 

[musulman]

but your nipples are large, like a womans. They will remian even if you lose weight. Most likely they have become larger due to hormonal imbalance. No matter how much weight you lose your chest will only look good if you make your nipples hard. So you have a form of gyno, your nipples have puffed up and enlarged. Thats a starting sign for gyno.

Also uou need to lose so much weight that if you tried to religously and quickly you will screw up hormonal balance again, which yours is sensitive and delicate at best. Your best bet is very slow and steady weight loss, give it a year if not more and even the then you will look like a smaller version of your self, give your self a good 5 years to see some good changes in muscles and bodyfat and dont even consider steroids, you will not be happy, trust me, they will only just mess your types up more. Be happy with being healthy, and slolwy getting better with time. I emphasise slowly cos you aint going anywhere fast, you cant with your delicate hormonal status, you are not like those top level pro boxers who can lose 50 lbs before a fight. They are more robust individuals with a stronger hormonal balance. You are different so you need to be copnservative.

Good luck.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Basically the same for me. I tried taking 62 mg of DHEA daily before I started on TRT. It helped for a while. Depression and sexual got better, but then started to go back again. I still took it after starting Androgel and my E2 kept climbing. I found a published study over a year ago that showed that it raises T in women and the T level stays up. However, in the men in the study, it raised T for a couple of months and then T went back down and E2 went up. I have tried to find the report again, but have not been able to. I can't find a bookmark for it either or a copy in my health folder on the hard drive. It was in pdf format.

I can find no reasonable use of DHEA. It was a passing treatment more than a decade ago, particularly for a study finding higher levels in older adults. I did find the following articles that do show an increase in E2 levels after DHEA administration. I am aware these are in older adults.

Whether or not the DHEA increases the E2 levels is an added argument against its use. Regardless, there is absolutely NO indication for nickatnite to be given DHEA. I come back to what I asked: What is the diagnosis? What is the treatment? Once again, HAN has produced a bunch of posts with no substance (i.e, BS), provided possibly a harmful treatment and undoubtedly a totally ineffective one, and proves he is a master at obfuscation.


Nair KS, Rizza RA, O'Brien P, et al. DHEA in Elderly Women and DHEA or Testosterone in Elderly Men. N Engl J Med 2006;355(16):1647-59.

Weiss EP, Shah K, Fontana L, Lambert CP, Holloszy JO, Villareal DT. Dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in older adults: 1- and 2-y effects on bone. Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89(5):1459-67.

 

[TheOldFart]

I can find no reasonable use of DHEA. It was a passing treatment more than a decade ago, particularly for a study finding higher levels in older adults. I did find the following articles that do show an increase in E2 levels after DHEA administration. I am aware these are in older adults.

Whether or not the DHEA increases the E2 levels is an added argument against its use. Regardless, there is absolutely NO indication for nickatnite to be given DHEA. I come back to what I asked: What is the diagnosis? What is the treatment? Once again, HAN has produced a bunch of posts with no substance (i.e, BS), provided possibly a harmful treatment and undoubtedly a totally ineffective one, and proves he is a master at obfuscation.


Nair KS, Rizza RA, O'Brien P, et al. DHEA in Elderly Women and DHEA or Testosterone in Elderly Men. N Engl J Med 2006;355(16):1647-59.

Weiss EP, Shah K, Fontana L, Lambert CP, Holloszy JO, Villareal DT. Dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in older adults: 1- and 2-y effects on bone. Am J Clin Nutr 2009;89(5):1459-67.

I found those 2 and the second one does show that it raises T in women. Basically the same as the other one that I cannot find again. However, if I remember correctly, that one showed a greater E2 increase in men after 6 to 12 months. As I have said here before, I bought into the DHEA hype for about 6 to 10 months and then saw my E2 rising and found medical confirmation of DHEA causing this. In addition, I have linked to a study here before that shows that DHEA in the 60 to 100 range improves mortality in older men. That is where I am naturally now (72 ug/dl)) and are completely satisfied with no DHEA supplementation for about 18 months now since I stopped using it.