Revolution

The Lessons of History

For those huffing and puffing about the Middle East protests, who believe that free elections will occur, that democracy will triumph, that the people will experience a freedom never seen before, have yet to learn the real lessons of history. It is said those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. Here is one hell of a reminder of some historical facts related to the current wave of protests. This should open anybody's eyes:

Democracy, The God That Failed - Jerry Bowyer - The Great Relearning - Forbes
 
Hint: they won't be free elections as Bruce McQuain in the QANDO.NET piece pointed out for those less able to gauge how things actually work in the Middle East.

Greg, you still havent answered my basic question. Do you believe in majority rule or that an elite minority should call the shots and make the rules?
This is the issue that Jefferson and the others faced when writing our constitution.
They went with a representative democracy, which reflects the will of the majority.
What if our constitution were implemented in Egypt and anti-Americans won fair and square?
Would you respect their decision?

Cornel West posed this question recently on Real Time with Bill Mahr.
I think it is a valid, reasonable and important question.


Cornel West - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the discussion:

http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill-maher/index.html#/real-time-with-bill-maher/episodes/0/202-episode/video/202-february-11-overtime.html/eNrjcmbOYM5Xz89JccxLzKksyUwOSExP9UvMTWUu1CzLTEnNh4k75+eVpFaUcDIysjGySSeWluQX5CRW2pYUlaayMQIATB0XOA==



I said WHAT IF.
Not what to you think will.
Hypothetical situation if you like.
AGAIN
What if our constitution were implemented in Egypt and anti-Americans won fair and square?
Would you respect their decision?
Are you gonna tell me that you dont deal in hypotheticals?
Got car insurance?
Answer the question!
honestly please
 
Hundreds of Thousands Protest Across the Mideast
By SHARON OTTERMAN and J. DAVID GOODMAN
Published: February 25, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/world/middleeast/26unrest.html


CAIRO — Tens of thousands of protesters turned out in cities across the Middle East on Friday to protest the unaccountability of their leaders and express solidarity with the uprising in Libya that Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi is trying to suppress with force.

In Iraq, demonstrations for better government services spiraled out of control in many places. Protesters burned buildings and security forces fired on crowds in Baghdad, Mosul, Ramadi and in Salahuddin Province, north of the capital, killing at least four people.

Large-scale demonstrations in Yemen appeared to proceed more peacefully, even festively. More than 100,000 people poured into the streets on Friday, after Yemen’s embattled president pledged on Wednesday not to crack down on protesters.

In Egypt, tens of thousands of people returned to Tahrir Square in central Cairo to celebrate one full month since the start of the popular revolution that toppled President Hosni Mubarak.

In Bahrain, pro-democracy demonstrations on a scale rivaling the largest ever seen in the tiny Persian Gulf nation blocked a downtown Manama highway and filled a central square on Friday for a second time in a week. In a shift from Tuesday, when antigovernment protesters brought more than 100,000 to the central Pearl Square, it was the country’s Shiite religious leaders who called for people to take to the streets on Friday, a development that could change the dynamic in a country where a Shiite majority is ruled by leaders from its Sunni minority.

“We are winners and victory comes from God,” protesters chanted. A small number of black flags — a Shiite mourning symbol — could be seen for the first time in the vast sea of red and white, the colors of Bahrain.

Throughout the unrest that has gripped the region for more than a month, protest organizers have mounted their largest demonstrations on Fridays, a day off punctuated by an important Muslim prayer service at noon.

The violence in Iraq came after demonstrators responded to a call for a “day of rage” despite attempts by the government to keep people from taking to the streets. Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki made a televised speech on Thursday urging Iraqis not to gather, and security officials in Baghdad banned all cars from the streets until further notice.

Demonstrations reached near the Green Zone as protesters in the capital pulled down two concrete blast walls that had been blocking access to a bridge that leads to the protected zone. Rock throwing demonstrators then clashed with security forces who, in turn, beat many of the protesters to prevent them from crossing the bridge.

As protesters took to the streets around the region, many kept their eyes on Libya, where the government has been waging a brutal crackdown against protesters, whose efforts over the past week have developed into a full-scale rebellion. Much of the east of the country is now in the hands of antigovernment rebels and clashes continue in the west. In Tripoli, which is under the control of mercenaries and militias as Colonel Qaddafi’s attempts to preserve the capital, protesters pledged to brave threats of violence to take to the streets.

Opposition leaders had also pledged to march to Tripoli from other cities, though the roads were reported to be thick with checkpoints and heavily armed forces that remain loyal to Colonel Qaddafi’s 40-year rule. But tens of thousands did turn out in Benghazi, the eastern city where the Libyan rebellion started over a week ago, and which is now in control of the opposition.

In Yemen, where protesters have faced sporadic violence from security forces and government supporters, roughly 100,000 people massed in the southern city of Taiz for demonstrations dubbed “Martyrs’ Friday,” in honor of two protesters who died in a grenade attack last week.

While weeks protests in the capital, Sana, have been tense, with repeated clashes between pro and antigovernment forces, the demonstration in Taiz, the intellectual hub of the country, took on a hopeful, exhilarated feel. Along with the youth who organized the protests on Facebook, older residents of the countryside flowed into the area of the town that protesters have dubbed Freedom Square.

"There are no parties, our revolution is a youth revolution,” read one banner. In emulation of Egypt’s Tahrir Square, the center of the protest zone in Taiz was filled with some 100 tents, where people had spent the night for more than a week, and there were national flags and large signs.

A cleric delivered a morning speech, reminding the people that the revolution was not against a single person but against oppression itself. And as noon prayers ended, the people broke out into the roaring chant that has now become familiar around the Arab world: “The people want to topple the regime.”

At the same time in the capital, tens of thousands of people were pouring into a square near the main gates of Sana University to call for the resignation of President Ali Abdullah Saleh amid a tight security presence, The Associated Press reported.

In Cairo, tens of thousands of Egyptians flooded Tahrir Square as much to renew the spirit of Egypt’s popular revolution, which resulted in Mr. Mubarak’s resignation on Feb. 11, as to press for new demands. The square felt like a carnival, filled with banners in Egypt’s national colors of black, white and red. Vendors sold cheese and bean sandwiches and popcorn, a man fried liver on a portable grill, and others sold revolutionary souvenirs, like miniature flags, stuffed animals, and stickers for sale.

The utopian spirit of the revolution, which had included people from all aspects of Egyptian society, was still evident, as secular leftists, members of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, and women wearing full Islamic veils with children on their arms circulated through the crowd. Ismael Abdul Latif, 27, a writer, chatted with the religious women, only their eyes showing, as they drew revolutionary posters.

“I never dreamed in my wildest dreams that we would be talking to a munaqaba”—as women in full veils are called -- “in Tahrir Square,” he said. “A secular artist is having a political debate with a fully veiled lady and having a meaningful conversation. What’s the world coming to?”

But there were also signs of tension, as well as reminder that it was the military that ultimately remains in charge. Several hours into the demonstration, an army officer demanded that protesters dismantle the tents they were erecting in the center of the square, touching off a series of angry arguments.

There were fervent political demands as well, foremost among them, the resignation of the cabinet that Mr. Mubarak had appointed before his downfall, as well as the dismantling of the security apparatus, the release of prisoners still held under Egypt’s repressive emergency laws, and the prosecution of former leaders guilty of corruption.

George Ishaq, one of the founders of Kifaya, an early protest movement here, led chants through speakers, saying, “Our demand today is a presidential council in which civilians will take part. We want it to be one politician one judge, and one representative of the armed forces.”

“We are not leaving, he’s leaving,” the crowd chanted, referring this time to Ahmed Shafiq, the prime minister, with the slogan that had foretold Mr. Mubarak’s fall. “Mubarak left the palace, but Shafiq still governs Egypt.”
 
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I said WHAT IF.
Not what to you think will.
Hypothetical situation if you like.
AGAIN
What if our constitution were implemented in Egypt and anti-Americans won fair and square?
Would you respect their decision?
Are you gonna tell me that you dont deal in hypotheticals?
Got car insurance?
Answer the question!
honestly please

The real world runs on real information and points of reference from the past. Your what if is not realistic so it is not a question to be taken seriously. Of course, IF they did win fair and square then good for them, as long as we take care of our long term interests and blow them to heaven when the cross us - which they will. But they will never win fair and square so again, you are asking a question that in the real world is meaningless to ask.
 
I said WHAT IF.
Not what to you think will.
Hypothetical situation if you like.
AGAIN
What if our constitution were implemented in Egypt and anti-Americans won fair and square?
Would you respect their decision?
Are you gonna tell me that you dont deal in hypotheticals?
Got car insurance?
Answer the question!
honestly please

And for credibility sakes, please quit making references to Bill Maher. The guy is bona fide idiot and a hack.
 
Leonard Cohen
Leonard Cohen - Democracy: Free MP3 Download
Ever heard this song? Listen to the words.
Be happy to send you the .wav file so you can catch all the nuances.

"Democracy"

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
 
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I'll take Churchill over Cohen anytime. He is a bit more concise and did take part in saving the free world so Cohen could sing his hippie song:

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Nuff said.

Leonard Cohen
Leonard Cohen - Democracy: Free MP3 Download
Ever heard this song? Listen to the words.
Be happy to send you the .wav file so you can catch all the nuances.

"Democracy"

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
 
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Exposed: Gaddaffi Inc.
The Libyan dictator has salted away billions from stolen oil revenues in London, buying prestigious assets and influence among the Establishment. We should be ashamed, says Michael Burleigh.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/8348184/Exposed-Gaddaffi-Inc..html


Long Bread Lines and Open Revolt in Libya’s Capital
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/world/africa/27libya.html?hp
 
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It has also been said that a benevolent despot is the best form of government.
Why are you comparing Cohen to Churchill ? alliteration ?
Bananas are superior to beans because they grow on trees.
Trees are taller than bean bushes, taller is better, so bananas are better than beans.
Tell me more.



I'll take Churchill over Cohen anytime. He is a bit more concise and did take part in saving the free world so Cohen could sing his hippie song:

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Nuff said.
 
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It has also been said that a benevolent despot is the best form of government.
Why are you comparing Cohen to Churchill ? alliteration ?
Bananas are superior to beans because they grow on trees.
Trees are taller than bean bushes, taller is better, so bananas are better than beans.
Tell me more.

Actually, you are right. I should not be comparing Churchill to Cohen. There is no comparison. One man stood with freedom and helped put an end to the Nazi regime, while the other spent his time demeaning the very system that allowed him to live his free love hippie life. In 100 years nobody will now who the hell Cohen is. But Churchill - now that's another story. I don't care what Cohen thinks about Democracy. He is not a great thinker or leader. He wrote a few frigging songs. Wow. I'm impressed.
 
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Libya uprising: Anti-Gaddafi forces control Zawiya
BBC News - Libya uprising: Anti-Gaddafi forces control Zawiya

8950



Live Blog - Libya Feb 27
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-feb-27
 

Attachments

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    _51442270_libya_key_locs_464map_3.jpg
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Can you say TOAST? [In case you missed it, this thread is titled REVOLUTION and was begun on January 28. In other words, the thread expected more than just Egypt. For those that seemingly express the opinion for NO change [REVOLUTION], you are on the side of dictatorship, repression, and more. Regardless of the outcome, there must be REVOLUTION to have change. WAKE UP!]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBY-0n4esNY"]YouTube - Muammar Gaddafi - Zenga Zenga Song - Noy Alooshe Remix[/ame]
 
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Unfit for Democracy?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/opinion/27kristof.html

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: February 26, 2011

Is the Arab world unready for freedom? A crude stereotype lingers that some people — Arabs, Chinese and Africans — are incompatible with democracy. Many around the world fret that “people power” will likely result in Somalia-style chaos, Iraq-style civil war or Iran-style oppression.

That narrative has been nourished by Westerners and, more sadly, by some Arab, Chinese and African leaders. So with much of the Middle East in an uproar today, let’s tackle a politically incorrect question head-on: Are Arabs too politically immature to handle democracy?

This concern is the subtext for much anxiety today, from Washington to Riyadh. And there’s no question that there are perils: the overthrow of the shah in Iran, of Saddam Hussein in Iraq, of Tito in Yugoslavia, all led to new oppression and bloodshed. Congolese celebrated the eviction of their longtime dictator in 1997, but the civil war since has been the most lethal conflict since World War II. If Libya becomes another Congo, if Bahrain becomes an Iranian satellite, if Egypt becomes controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood — well, in those circumstances ordinary citizens might end up pining for former oppressors.

“Before the revolution, we were slaves, and now we are the slaves of former slaves,” Lu Xun, the great Chinese writer, declared after the toppling of the Qing dynasty. Is that the future of the Middle East?

I don’t think so. Moreover, this line of thinking seems to me insulting to the unfree world. In Egypt and Bahrain in recent weeks, I’ve been humbled by the lionhearted men and women I’ve seen defying tear gas or bullets for freedom that we take for granted. How can we say that these people are unready for a democracy that they are prepared to die for?

We Americans spout bromides about freedom. Democracy campaigners in the Middle East have been enduring unimaginable tortures as the price of their struggle — at the hands of dictators who are our allies — yet they persist. In Bahrain, former political prisoners have said that their wives were taken into the jail in front of them. And then the men were told that unless they confessed, their wives would promptly be raped. That, or more conventional tortures, usually elicited temporary confessions, yet for years or decades those activists persisted in struggling for democracy. And we ask if they’re mature enough to handle it?

The common thread of this year’s democracy movement from Tunisia to Iran, from Yemen to Libya, has been undaunted courage. I’ll never forget a double-amputee I met in Tahrir Square in Cairo when Hosni Mubarak’s thugs were attacking with rocks, clubs and Molotov cocktails. This young man rolled his wheelchair to the front lines. And we doubt his understanding of what democracy means?

In Bahrain, I watched a column of men and women march unarmed toward security forces when, a day earlier, the troops had opened fire with live ammunition. Anyone dare say that such people are too immature to handle democracy?

Look, there’ll be bumps ahead. It took Americans six years after the Revolutionary War to elect a president, and we almost came apart at the seams again in the 1860s. When Eastern Europe became democratic after the 1989 revolutions, Poland and the Czech Republic adjusted well, but Romania and Albania endured chaos for years. After the 1998 people power revolution in Indonesia, I came across mobs in eastern Java who were beheading people and carrying their heads on pikes.

The record is that after some missteps, countries usually pull through. Education, wealth, international connections and civil society institutions help. And, on balance, Egypt, Libya and Bahrain are better positioned today for democracy than Mongolia or Indonesia seemed in the 1990s — and Mongolia and Indonesia today are successes. Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain visited the Middle East a few days ago (arms dealers in tow), and he forthrightly acknowledged that for too long Britain had backed authoritarian regimes to achieve stability. He acknowledged that his country had bought into the bigoted notion “that Arabs or Muslims can’t do democracy.” And he added: “For me, that’s a prejudice that borders on racism. It’s offensive and wrong, and it’s simply not true.”

It’s still a view peddled by Arab dictatorships, particularly Saudi Arabia — and, of course, by China’s leaders and just about any African despot. It’s unfortunate when Westerners are bigoted in this way, but it’s even sadder when leaders in the developing world voice such prejudices about their own people.

In the 21st century, there’s no realistic alternative to siding with people power. Prof. William Easterly of New York University proposes a standard of reciprocity: “I don’t support autocracy in your society if I don’t want it in my society.”

That should be our new starting point. I’m awed by the courage I see, and it’s condescending and foolish to suggest that people dying for democracy aren’t ready for it.
 
Actually, you are right. I should not be comparing Churchill to Cohen. There is no comparison. One man stood with freedom and helped put an end to the Nazi regime, while the other spent his time demeaning the very system that allowed him to live his free love hippie life. In 100 years nobody will now who the hell Cohen is. But Churchill - now that's another story. I don't care what Cohen thinks about Democracy. He is not a great thinker or leader. He wrote a few frigging songs. Wow. I'm impressed.

The same could be said of Bach and Mozart: they wrote a few songs. Or VanGogh: he did a few paintings.
I respect your right to dislike Cohen. But I`m curious. Is it his message you dislike or do you think that art, per se, is unimportant?
 
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