Post up your Natty IGF-1 Level

[Jin23]

I've been taking my MK/CJC stack for like a month now, and plan to keep using it for the next 8 weeks.

What's your baseline and how much cjc are you taking?

And be mindful of long term exposure to cjc. There Might be some issues.

DNA damage and growth hormone hypersecretion in pituitary somatotroph adenomas - PMC

Drivers of sporadic benign pituitary adenoma growth are largely unknown. Whole-exome sequencing of 159 prospectively resected pituitary adenomas showed that somatic copy number alteration (SCNA) rather than mutation is a hallmark of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DugPrime]

What's your baseline and how much cjc are you taking?

And be mindful of long term exposure to cjc. There Might be some issues.

DNA damage and growth hormone hypersecretion in pituitary somatotroph adenomas - PMC

Drivers of sporadic benign pituitary adenoma growth are largely unknown. Whole-exome sequencing of 159 prospectively resected pituitary adenomas showed that somatic copy number alteration (SCNA) rather than mutation is a hallmark of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think I was in the 300s on TRT, and I'm injecting 0.70 mg of CJC-DAC per day.

I wish I could use Lantus and turn into a mass-building machine with these high chronic IGF-1 levels, but I can't because that stack causes insulin resistance very quickly. My morning BG went from 60 to 94 in just a month, even while taking 1.5 g of Metformin daily—and I still have eight weeks to go.

On top of that, there are the risks of acromegaly, DNA damage, and the fucking amount of water retention I do is just absurd. I think I'll finish my CJC/MK for this cycle and then just go back to HGH.

 

[Jin23]

I think I was in the 300s on TRT, and I'm injecting 0.70 mg of CJC-DAC per day.

I wish I could use Lantus and turn into a mass-building machine with these high chronic IGF-1 levels, but I can't because that stack causes insulin resistance very quickly. My morning BG went from 60 to 94 in just a month, even while taking 1.5 g of Metformin daily—and I still have eight weeks to go.

On top of that, there are the risks of acromegaly, DNA damage, and the fucking amount of water retention I do is just absurd. I think I'll finish my CJC/MK for this cycle and then just go back to HGH.

In all fairness, it's probably the Mk that's causing you BG issues, not cjc.

What's your weight?

 

[DugPrime]

In all fairness, it's probably the Mk that's causing you BG issues, not cjc.

What's your weight?

I went from 200lbs (end of cut, fully glycogen depleted) to 258lbs in 4 weeks

 

[Jin23]

I went from 200lbs (end of cut, fully glycogen depleted) to 258lbs in 4 weeks

I was asking about your weight in order to see if your cjc dose is adequate, as cjc dose is determined by body weight.

Best bang for buck is at 60 mcg/kg of body weight. You'd need app 7 mg/week to achieve the required dose. I'd say drop the mk and up the cjc and your BG problems will probably lessen to a large degree.

 

[malfeasance]

I went from 200lbs (end of cut, fully glycogen depleted) to 258lbs in 4 weeks

That's, um, a lot.

 

[DugPrime]

I was asking about your weight in order to see if your cjc dose is adequate, as cjc dose is determined by body weight.

Best bang for buck is at 60 mcg/kg of body weight. You'd need app 7 mg/week to achieve the required dose. I'd say drop the mk and up the cjc and your BG problems will probably lessen to a large degree.

I'm first trying to increase my Metformin dosage and see how it goes over the next few weeks. If it still doesn't work, I'll definitely drop the MK-677.

That's, um, a lot.

I agree, but now with a better diet, a low-dose diuretic, a better e2 control and potassium citrate, I've already lost 5 lbs and I think that I'll be close to 10lbs. That would still be an increase of 48lbs in 4 weeks, which is extreme, I am retaining water like crazy.

 

[Jin23]

I agree, but now with a better diet, a low-dose diuretic, a better e2 control and potassium citrate, I've already lost 5 lbs and I think that I'll be close to 10lbs. That would still be an increase of 48lbs in 4 weeks, which is extreme, I am retaining water like crazy.

Ah, 4 weeks, I haven't seen that, khm, important piece of information. So that's basically all water weight which is seriously unhealthy. Drop the MK bro. Now. You're causing damage, don't be a smart ass.

Diuretics, potassium citrate he said ...

 

[DugPrime]

Ah, 4 weeks, I haven't seen that, khm, important piece of information. So that's basically all water weight which is seriously unhealthy. Drop the MK bro. Now. You're causing damage, don't be a smart ass.

Diuretics, potassium citrate he said ...

FYI, I was at the end of a very very long cut. I ended up eating 1800 calories a day and was extremely flat. I've since regained all my water and glycogen, as well as all the muscle I lost through muscle memory.

On top of that, there's some extra water retention from the bad diet and MK. That’s why I rearranged my diet and added a low dose of chlorthalidone + potassium, which significantly reduced bloating while keeping me hydrated.

So, I've just regained all my initial weight and am holding some extra water due to certain compounds. And that low dose of chlorthalidone helps keep my blood pressure within range, I don’t see anything really bad happening at the moment.

 

[Jin23]

FYI, I was at the end of a very very long cut. I ended up eating 1800 calories a day and was extremely flat. I've since regained all my water and glycogen, as well as all the muscle I lost through muscle memory.

On top of that, there's some extra water retention from the bad diet and MK. That’s why I rearranged my diet and added a low dose of chlorthalidone + potassium, which significantly reduced bloating while keeping me hydrated.

So, I've just regained all my initial weight and am holding some extra water due to certain compounds. And that low dose of chlorthalidone helps keep my blood pressure within range, I don’t see anything really bad happening at the moment.

48 pounds ... Going from hypo to eu calories is app 2 to 3 kg's of water weight regain. You maybe also regained a kg of muscle tissue, let's say 2, if you are on a high androgen load, but that's somewhat generous for an experienced lifter. So adding things up is 5 kg's, I think that's app 11 pounds.

Idk what kind of water fluctuations are normal for you, but your situation is far from normal and healthy. If you want to convince yourself that you're healthy because you "feel ok" then be my guest, I'm not going to drag this up any further : )

 

[DugPrime]

48 pounds ... Going from hypo to eu calories is app 2 to 3 kg's of water weight regain. You maybe also regained a kg of muscle tissue, let's say 2, if you are on a high androgen load, but that's somewhat generous for an experienced lifter. So adding things up is 5 kg's, I think that's app 11 pounds.

Idk what kind of water fluctuations are normal for you, but your situation is far from normal and healthy. If you want to convince yourself that you're healthy because you "feel ok" then be my guest, I'm not going to drag this up any further : )

You're right, all that water retention and insulin resistance made me finally stop it today. I'll see how it goes in the next few days since I'm still on 5mg of CJC-1295 DAC per week.

 

[readalot]

Fig 4
That should do it. You could throw this line (calculated from these data) along with confidence intervals on a new graph as a general guideline. If we had all the member bodyweights we could redo your graph above and make a gross comparison.

Thanks again for the cool plot @AlexDavis43.

Here's why that scatter plot from member data has an R2 close to 0.

I'll spare the details on compiling these plots. Ask if interested. Two really big drivers are body weight and age.

Normalized dose response from 2021 Norditropin clinical trial:



80 and 100 kg man example plots:


Finally I threw in the Dall et al 2000 paper for the supra doses:



Saturation effect clearly seen from 10 to 20 IU/day.

So now you have a handy graph to ball park response to various daily dosing. Enjoy.

 

[malfeasance]

wow, 850 at about 18 iu daily . . . hmmm . . . everybody knows which one comes in 18 iu vials

 

[Sicsemptyran]

wow, 850 at about 18 iu daily . . . hmmm . . . everybody knows which one comes in 18 iu vials

@readalot is just a few more titrations away from that 850 IGF

 

[readalot]

Added @Wrangel7 's data point. Whole thing came out better than I thought it would. All data could be fit with a classic assymptotic regression. Congrats @Wrangel7 , you are now immortal.


Left panel: linear abscissa
Right panel: log abscissa

@AlexDavis43

 

[AlexDavis43]

Added @Wrangel7 's data point. Whole thing came out better than I thought it would. All data could be fit with a classic assymptotic regression. Congrats @Wrangel7 , you are now immortal.

View attachment 318409
Left panel: linear abscissa
Right panel: log abscissa

@AlexDavis43

The 90 IU point completely fucked up the graph, so I deleted it. Maybe I'll try the log transformation like you did.

Edit: Lol nope, still fucked up





The top equation is what I've been using whenever anyone asks how much hGH to get a certain IGF1 value or to estimate IGF1 response to a certain dose of hGH.

It's like 20 data points from members here who are running hGH and there's a crap-ton of variation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For anyone interested: as Read suggested earlier, if you post body weight, hGH dose, and IGF1, I'll try to make separate lines for specific BW ranges.

 

[readalot]

The 90 IU point completely fucked up the graph, so I deleted it. Maybe I'll try the log transformation like you did.

Edit: Lol nope, still fucked up


View attachment 318434


The top equation is what I've been using whenever anyone asks how much hGH to get a certain IGF1 value or to estimate IGF1 response to a certain dose of hGH.

It's like 20 data points from members here who are running hGH and there's a crap-ton of variation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For anyone interested: as Read suggested earlier, if you post body weight, hGH dose, and IGF1, I'll try to make separate lines for specific BW ranges.

Absolutely, that's why we would have to put everyone on the dose normalized graph (even better with clusters parameterized by age as you state)...

Normalized dose response from 2021 Norditropin clinical trial:

The other graphs I made were mean responses for various age and body weight. Of course I made assumption about @Wrangel7 body mass. All the clinical trial data (mean response) fit a classic logistic curve pretty well including Wrangel's data point.

 

[Sampei]

What's your baseline and how much cjc are you taking?

And be mindful of long term exposure to cjc. There Might be some issues.

DNA damage and growth hormone hypersecretion in pituitary somatotroph adenomas - PMC

Drivers of sporadic benign pituitary adenoma growth are largely unknown. Whole-exome sequencing of 159 prospectively resected pituitary adenomas showed that somatic copy number alteration (SCNA) rather than mutation is a hallmark of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In that studies where does it says about CJC? I'm just trying to understand the correlation etc. I never did and never will use CJC but it's nice to understand the whole thing better

 

[AlexDavis43]

In that studies where does it says about CJC? I'm just trying to understand the correlation etc. I never did and never will use CJC but it's nice to understand the whole thing better

It's in the paper. They used CJC for cell culture and preclinical studies.

The implication (for us) is taking hGH itself might be better than getting the somatotrophs to crank out more endogenous hGH with releasing hormones (eg, CJC). Probably happens with other drugs too because it happened with GHRH-overexpressing mice (ref).

 

[Wrangel7]

Absolutely, that's why we would have to put everyone on the dose normalized graph (even better with clusters parameterized by age as you state)...




The other graphs I made were mean responses for various age and body weight. Of course I made assumption about @Wrangel7 body mass. All the clinical trial data (mean response) fit a classic logistic curve pretty well including Wrangel's data point.

You can put me as 20 years old and 100 kg (not exact values to not dox every data point about myself).