HCG in last week of PCT okay? Getting testes back to size...

[SacToSD]

So I'm still having some atrophy here in week 4 of pct (6 weeks off of stuff, now), and wondering if it's possible to use some hcg as a jumpstart to get the testes up and running, again. I used hcg minimally throughout the cycle, 5000 units over 8 weeks of a 16 week cycle at 250 units twice per week, and have used clomid at 100 mg/day for the first 2 weeks of pct, 50 mg/day last 2 weeks of pct. Thanks bros, I appreciate the help.

PS- I've done lots of research on this, I wouldn't be asking if I hadn't done it myself, beforehand. It seems that the recommendations are to use it in the first week to three weeks of the pct ranging from 500 units per day to 1000 units per day. Does anyone have a good recommendation? Thanks again

 

[ironmanlives79]

Im wondering, didnt the hcg prevent your testes from shrinking during the cycle???

 

[Bigkarch]

had a doc prescribe me 100 units ed.....

 

[mtyson]

you need some off time now and balls will be ok in few weeks.

 

[dennis]

16 weeks cycle will take some time to recover from..could be a long time so be ready for that.On a 16 week cycle I would use hcg 750 ius weekly during weeks 5-16.Then weeks 16-18 would use 500 ius eod untill I started my nolva/clomid.I would not use it right now if i were you.Plan on 6 weeks of pct not 4.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Your PCT was wrong. Your use of hCG during the cycle was homeopathic (of little or no worth). I know these things well.

Do you have access to lab testing?

 

[SacToSD]

Your PCT was wrong. Your use of hCG during the cycle was homeopathic (of little or no worth). I know these things well.

Do you have access to lab testing?

Hi, unfortunately, I don't have access to health insurance or reliable testing. If I did, then how would I treat this condition myself (presuming that I knew what was going on)? And another question, I'm in school right now and might be interested in pursuing a career in medicine. Hormones are something that I'd like to study, that I have an interest in. What kind of specialty would that be? Endocrinology? What kind of Doc can specialize in TRT/HRT for men? Thanks a lot

 

[Cheezboyz]

Hi, unfortunately, I don't have access to health insurance or reliable testing. If I did, then how would I treat this condition myself (presuming that I knew what was going on)? And another question, I'm in school right now and might be interested in pursuing a career in medicine. Hormones are something that I'd like to study, that I have an interest in. What kind of specialty would that be? Endocrinology? What kind of Doc can specialize in TRT/HRT for men? Thanks a lot

As was recommended earlier, you should check out Google I love Google!

Judging by the wording in your post I assume you haven't chosen a major yet and therefore are a Sophmore or Freshman in college (so you're about 20 years old)?

Anyways, since you're an undergrad you would change your major (most likely) to either Biology or Biochemistry [if your school doesn't have a Pre-Med program]. Then take it from there...the questions you just asked are WAY down the road. I'm sure the professors and career counselors at your university would give you a lot more info than you could attain from this forum. Good luck and study HARD!

 

[Cheezboyz]

Your PCT was wrong. Your use of hCG during the cycle was homeopathic (of little or no worth). I know these things well.

If one is using Test E/C and shooting once or twice a week then HCG during cycle could assist in keeping serum levels of testosterone stable [if the HCG is administered at specific times in relation to the Test injection(s)].

Additionally, HCG keeps the testes primed and ready to respond to LH once PCT has commenced. So when Clomid therapy begins there is a concomitant release in LH, and since the testes are not atrophed they will respond to the LH stimuli. Whereas if HCG was not used during cycle there will be longer delay [to when the tested will respond to the LH stimuli]. Yes, you may only need to run HCG during the end of your cycle to get this benefit, as opposed to the entire cycle, but as I said earlier HCG assists in attaining steady serum levels of Testosterone.

Anecdotal evidence has also shown HCG to improve mood on cycle and make recovery post-cycle from AISH a smoother, less stressful experience.

This isn't the most scientific explanation but I look forward to your response, Dr. Scally.

 

[SacToSD]

As was recommended earlier, you should check out Google I love Google!

Judging by the wording in your post I assume you haven't chosen a major yet and therefore are a Sophmore or Freshman in college (so you're about 20 years old)?

Anyways, since you're an undergrad you would change your major (most likely) to either Biology or Biochemistry [if your school doesn't have a Pre-Med program]. Then take it from there...the questions you just asked are WAY down the road. I'm sure the professors and career counselors at your university would give you a lot more info than you could attain from this forum. Good luck and study HARD!

Thanks for the reply, Cheezyboyz. I'm a Chemistry major, and going to one of the UC's this fall. I'd like to minor in biochemistry, too. Hopefully I can contribute to this (and other) boards in the future with knowledge and experience in the way that others do, here. Thanks again.
PS- study HARD for sure!

 

[Michael Scally MD]

And another question, I'm in school right now and might be interested in pursuing a career in medicine. Hormones are something that I'd like to study, that I have an interest in. What kind of specialty would that be? Endocrinology? What kind of Doc can specialize in TRT/HRT for men? Thanks a lot

Do yourself a favor, do not go into direct clinical care except as adding to a business career. If I had to do things over, I would never, never, had chosen the path I took. it has had some great rewards, but sticking my neck out for the proper use of AAS has had devastating consequences. I hope that in time these will be resolved. But, you can do a greater good for many more people and make a lot more money. Keep a broad perspective and high goals (CEO of a large PhRMA). In may take more years, but get a MD/PhD with a MBA. Then go kick ass and become very very wealthy.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I am a proponent of hCG use during TRT or cycling. The question is the dose. I have written often that 250 IU is inadequate. I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadismhypogonadotropic or secondaryis characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen.

 

[bigpapabuff]

wow very good info MD

 

[Millard]

Do yourself a favor, do not go into direct clinical care except as adding to a business career. If I had to do things over, I would never, never, had chosen the path I took. it has had some great rewards, but sticking my neck out for the proper use of AAS has had devastating consequences. I hope that in time these will be resolved. But, you can do a greater good for many more people and make a lot more money. Keep a broad perspective and high goals (CEO of a large PhRMA). In may take more years, but get a MD/PhD with a MBA. Then go kick ass and become very very wealthy.

Dr. Michael Scally no doubt has helped thousands in his clinical practice and continues to help people everyday on the MESO-Rx forum and elsewhere but I am very excited about the potential of his current projects. They could help (literally) untold millions of people by establishing the medical standard of care for individuals treated with anabolic-androgenic steroids.

 

[Cheezboyz]

1st Post

Your PCT was wrong. Your use of hCG during the cycle was homeopathic (of little or no worth). I know these things well.

2nd Post

I am a proponent of hCG use during TRT or cycling. The question is the dose. I have written often that 250 IU is inadequate. I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

Dr. Scally, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Thank you.

I interpreted your first post as saying ALL use of HCG during cycle was useless. After reading your second post I realize my initial interpretation is incorrect.

You were merely saying HCG @ 250iu 2x/wk is of little worth....not the use of HCG during cycle, correct? One should instead use 500iu Q3D.

I am now wondering if you would kindly elaborate on what you believe to be an effective protocol for administering HCG in relation to a cycle's start/end dates and half-life of the AAS used?

For example:
12 week cycle of Test Cypionate @ 500mg/wk
Administered: Monday and Thursday PW
First Injection: Day 1
Last Injection: Day 81
Let's assume our weeks begin on Monday and end on Saturday for convenience purposes.

1. Should HCG administration begin during Week 1? If so, do we risk desensitization to HCG since we're running it for such a long time period?
2. When should HCG be administered in relation to our semi-weekly Test Cyp injections? AFAIK, one would want to administer their HCG with the goal of maintaining steady serum testosterone levels. Considering your recommendation for Q3D and the common 2x/wk regimen, would the day prior to Test Cyp injections, when T levels are lowest, be most optimum (in this case Sunday and Wednesday)? This would help T levels be more consistent throughout the week.
3. How far past our last injection of Test Cyp should HCG be administered? AFAIK, ~5 days before PCT begins. This is to make sure the HCG isn't causing any\ suppression when we begin PCT.
4. Should we increase the dosage of HCG during the last couple weeks of administration?
   This is a common practice seen on the boards. Many will run HCG solely for the last 2-3 weeks (leading up to PCT) using 1000-5000iu 2-3x/wk or run HCG for the majority of their cycle @ 250-500iu 2x/wk and then use 2-10x their normal dosing for the final couple weeks of administration.
5. When would you begin PCT (Clomid/Nolva Therapy)? For this cycle I would start PCT at the start Week 15.

Once again, thank you Dr. Scally for sharing your experience and knowledge with us all. Your words are invaluable

 

[big_tom]

I've used it at 500IU x 2 week starting in on my last two weeks of cycle. Then continue for two weeks after cycle
completion at same dose but adding in Clomid and Nolva. That was on a 1 gram+ per week of test cycle.

I'm sure the doc and vets will have better advice. Mine is vague but worked well to get the testes back in order.
Everyone is different.

BT

 

[Cheezboyz]

I've used it at 500IU x 2 week starting in on my last two weeks of cycle. Then continue for two weeks after cycle
completion at same dose but adding in Clomid and Nolva. That was on a 1 gram+ per week of test cycle.

I'm sure the doc and vets will have better advice. Mine is vague but worked well to get the testes back in order.
Everyone is different.

BT

Thanks big_tom

I have spoken to Dr. Scally through PM, and I don't think he will be getting around to answering my questions.

So instead I would like to hear everyone's thoughts regarding how I would answer my questions:

1. Yes, start at Week 1.

2. If shooting Test Cyp once per week = administer HCG the two days prior to Test Cyp injection.
If shooting Test Cyp twice per week = administer HCG the day before each Test Cyp injection.

3. Run HCG until ~5 days before you begin PCT.

4. If you ran 500iu 2x/wk from Week 1, then no.
If you ran 250iu 2x/wk from Week 1, then yes, increase your HCG dose to 500iu 2x/wk for
the 3 weeks preceding PCT.

5. Begin PCT at Week 15, which would be ~2.5 weeks after your last Test Cyp injection. Run
orals during the 2 weeks leading up to PCT. Begin with Clomid @ 50mg for 3-4 weeks, and
then Nolva @ 20mg for 3-4 weeks. I like a thorough PCT to insure recovery. Use IGF-1 LR3
or PEG-MGF during PCT to help retain gains..

Let's hear some criticism! (and agreement!)

 

[big_tom]

Thanks big_tom

I have spoken to Dr. Scally through PM, and I don't think he will be getting around to answering my questions.

So instead I would like to hear everyone's thoughts regarding how I would answer my questions:

1. Yes, start at Week 1.

2. If shooting Test Cyp once per week = administer HCG the two days prior to Test Cyp injection.
If shooting Test Cyp twice per week = administer HCG the day before each Test Cyp injection.

3. Run HCG until ~5 days before you begin PCT.

4. If you ran 500iu 2x/wk from Week 1, then no.
If you ran 250iu 2x/wk from Week 1, then yes, increase your HCG dose to 500iu 2x/wk for
the 3 weeks preceding PCT.

5. Begin PCT at Week 15, which would be ~2.5 weeks after your last Test Cyp injection. Run
orals during the 2 weeks leading up to PCT. Begin with Clomid @ 50mg for 3-4 weeks, and
then Nolva @ 20mg for 3-4 weeks. I like a thorough PCT to insure recovery. Use IGF-1 LR3
or PEG-MGF during PCT to help retain gains..

Let's hear some criticism! (and agreement!)

Everything looks pretty good to me. I've never ran HCG throughout a cycle and didn't have a problem with recovery as I did proper PCT and anti-E during cycle. Everyone has a different chemistry and some are more pre-disposed to side-effects than others.

IGF-1 can be bennificial but I have not used it myself for PCT.

The one thing you need to keep in mind is that insulin molecules don't bind well to the receptor sites which have low ATP levels. It can really aid in recovery though if done right to aid in anabolism and inhibit catabolism. I think most of the pros do site injections per muscle group several times per day to achieve this.

Good luck and Happy Holidays guy!

BT

 

[Cheezboyz]

The one thing you need to keep in mind is that insulin molecules don't bind well to the receptor sites which have low ATP levels.
BT

Hey big_tom,

Would you please elaborate on your above statement? I do not know anything about this but would like some more information. If you know of any articles please post a link!

You are also talking about "insulin" whereas right before this you were talking about insulin-like growth factor 1. Did you mean to say IGF-1 instead of insulin? As you know IGF-1 and insulin are different hormones (although IGF-1 does bind to the insulin receptor, albeit with a very low binding affinity).

Happy Holidays big_tom

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Thanks big_tom

I have spoken to Dr. Scally through PM, and I don't think he will be getting around to answering my questions.

Hey, give me a break! I will get to the thread, in due time. Have you read some of my other posts? I try to explain subjects as fully as possible within a reasonable length, but this is not always possible. Also, I leave some open for thought. [I'll Be Back!]