HCG in last week of PCT okay? Getting testes back to size...

[Cheezboyz]

Hey, give me a break! I will get to the thread, in due time. Have you read some of my other posts? I try to explain subjects as fully as possible within a reasonable length, but this is not always possible. Also, I leave some open for thought. [I'll Be Back!]

No no no! I did not mean to attach ANY negative connotation to my above post! It is the holidays my friend, we all have so much to do

I was just trying to move the discussion along

I hope you had a wonderful Holiday! (Merry Christmas...but let's be politically correct hehe)

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I have come to answer the questions posed, but if you read my posts, as well as publications, these questions are already answered.

A question that needs to be asked is what is the purpose of hCG administration? Of course, this will depend on the clinical context. First, let me categorically and clearly answer that hCG desensitization does not occur. I know this will probably not be the end of this myth, but I have provided ample documentation for its fallacy.

hCG administration basically occurs under two circumstances. One is during AAS administration, the other being as part of PCT. I disagree with your definition or inference that hCG is not part of PCT. In fact, there is no PCT without hCG!

During AAS administration, the purpose of hCG can be to maintain testes size, testosterone synthesis, and/or spermatogenesis. They are not the same. For simplicity, cycling is to maintain testosterone synthesis. Do you want this to be at a near maximal rate or minimal rate? The answer to this will provide the answer for the hCG dose.

The use of 250 IU is a waste of time and money. I am willing to administer 500 IU Q3D (every three days), although, 1000 IU Q3D is probably more worthwhile. Remember, the idea is to STIMULATE MAXIMALLY T synthesis, not tickle it!!! During PCT, I use hCG 2,000-2,500 IU QOD. hGH has been shown to stimulate T synthesis.

Regarding the day of administration; I do not mean to embarrass you, but this question is an insult and dumb. Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

If you do TE 500 mg/week, the T level at week 12 will be over 6,000 ng/dL. At a half-life of 10-14 days, it will take at least a month or more before the HPTA even attempts to function! This will answer the question about PCT timing. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation.

 

[Cheezboyz]

Regarding the day of administration; I do not mean to embarrass you, but this question is an insult and dumb. Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

An insult? I believe what I asked was a question... haha

If you do TE 500 mg/week, the T level at week 12 will be over 6,000 ng/dL.............There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation.

Psychosexual Effects of Three Doses of Testosterone Cycling in Normal Men
Week 12 @ 500mg/wk -- 2,000 ng/dl

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
Week 16 @ 600mg/wk -- 2,370 ng/dl

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.
Week 10 @ 600mg/wk -- 2,828 ng/dl

I have not seen one study showing 500mg/wk TE to produce 6,000 ng/dl total testosterone. I do not mean to embarrass you Dr. Scally, but this statement is unfounded and just dumb. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation

Now, let's assume a male is administering TE once per week. [I think] it makes sense that he would benefit from administering HCG the two days prior to his weekly TE injection. The increase in testosterone will not be drastic, albeit it will still produce a rise in his T levels during the time of the week when his T levels are lowest [before his next shot].

With your HCG dose protocol of "maximal stimulation", the increase in T levels we produce should be significant enough to quantifiably minimize our range (difference between our highest and lowest T level during the week)....if we administer HCG at the correct times.

Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

Are you again saying that the increased Testosterone from HCG is like a pebble compared to our T levels on a cycle of AAS? I would have to agree if you based this notion on the "laboratory confirmations" that a normal male's T level is 6,000 ng/dl during a cycle of 500mg/wk Testosterone Enanthate....

Or, are you saying that at supraphysiological levels of Testosterone, stable blood levels are irrelevant? Because I think we can both agree the anecdotal evidence has proven time and again increased injection frequency, and subsequently more stable blood levels, has proven positive effects. This is why bi-weekly injections are preferred over once-weekly injections.

In conclusion, since we're already injecting HCG for testicular hypertrophy during cycle, why not "keep it simple" and simply inject twice a week in relation to our normal Testosterone injection(s). Timing HCG administration for the purpose of raising T levels (when at its lowest point) should prove beneficial. If HCG is not able achieve this, even in the slightest degree, then I really question the efficacy of HCG in general (which I don't).

 

[Michael Scally MD]

An insult? I believe what I asked was a question... haha


Psychosexual Effects of Three Doses of Testosterone Cycling in Normal Men
Week 12 @ 500mg/wk -- 2,000 ng/dl

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
Week 16 @ 600mg/wk -- 2,370 ng/dl

[Values on each day represent the mean (SE) of all available values on that day. However, the change represents the difference between paired values only. Treatment values represent the day 113 (week 16) values,OBTAINED 1 WK AFTER THE PREVIOUS TESTOSTERONE INJECTION.]

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.
Week 10 @ 600mg/wk -- 2,828 ng/dl

[Values checked were 1 week after the last injection.]

I have not seen one study showing 500mg/wk TE to produce 6,000 ng/dl total testosterone. I do not mean to embarrass you Dr. Scally, but this statement is unfounded and just dumb. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation

I think you need to read the articles, at least the ones in bold. I do not have the psychosexual article, but I will bet it follows the same procedure. If you check out the testing, it is done 7-10 days after the last injection. Since the half-life is ~7-10 days, you can double the result to get a rough estimate of the value.

In these cases, that will be 4,700-5,600. You were saying? The numbers I give are very good estimates, very good. These are from 100s of individual cases. As mu calculations show and the articles support these numbers are all within the same ballpark.

Finally, you are missing the mark for the purpose in estimating the blood level. These are to provide the best guess as to when the HPTA will attempt to function. It is at this point the PCT should begin, or on the case of hCG a little bit earlier. If you overestimate, there will be no harm. If you underestimate, you will begin PCT when the body is still in an elevated androgen state and waste meds and probably the return of the HPTA.

Care to try again?

I will address the remainder of your post, if I have time, and if you care to issue a mea culpa. You might just want to read the fine print in the article before you are so anxious to refute an expert. Don't feel bad, you are not the first, nor the last, to go down in flames.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

Did you learn something from this spanking?

An insult? I believe what I asked was a question... haha


The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.
Week 10 @ 600mg/wk -- 2,828 ng/dl

I have not seen one study showing 500mg/wk TE to produce 6,000 ng/dl total testosterone. I do not mean to embarrass you Dr. Scally, but this statement is unfounded and just dumb. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation

Since you are so smart, see: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134281975

I assume you read the article and did more than look at the pictures and numbers! The "Values at 10 weeks were obtained 1 week after the final injection? Again, dangerously, we will assume you are familiar with the half-life of testosterone cypionate (7-10 days). Once more, we will assume, very worried now, you are familiar with standard deviation (SD). Are you???

Okay, try to follow: The value at 1 week after the last injection is 2828 +/- 417. The level the week prior is roughly 5600. [In the exercise group the level is 3244+/- 305. The week prior is roughly 6500!]

The SD will probably be higher than 417. Try and take my word for it, but do not!!! Even if we use the same SD, the values for 2SD will be to 6400. [Oh, for the exercise group 2SD will get you 7100.]

Did you learn something from this spanking?

 

[Deacon]

I have come to answer the questions posed, but if you read my posts, as well as publications, these questions are already answered.

A question that needs to be asked is what is the purpose of hCG administration? Of course, this will depend on the clinical context. First, let me categorically and clearly answer that hCG desensitization does not occur. I know this will probably not be the end of this myth, but I have provided ample documentation for its fallacy.

hCG administration basically occurs under two circumstances. One is during AAS administration, the other being as part of PCT. I disagree with your definition or inference that hCG is not part of PCT. In fact, there is no PCT without hCG!

During AAS administration, the purpose of hCG can be to maintain testes size, testosterone synthesis, and/or spermatogenesis. They are not the same. For simplicity, cycling is to maintain testosterone synthesis. Do you want this to be at a near maximal rate or minimal rate? The answer to this will provide the answer for the hCG dose.

The use of 250 IU is a waste of time and money. I am willing to administer 500 IU Q3D (every three days), although, 1000 IU Q3D is probably more worthwhile. Remember, the idea is to STIMULATE MAXIMALLY T synthesis, not tickle it!!! During PCT, I use hCG 2,000-2,500 IU QOD. hGH has been shown to stimulate T synthesis.

Regarding the day of administration; I do not mean to embarrass you, but this question is an insult and dumb. Why would you think that administering hCG in any special relation to the TE is needed. This is not TRT. T T level will be through the roof. Keep it simple: inject hCG on days divisible by 3 (or 4), whichever you choose.

If you do TE 500 mg/week, the T level at week 12 will be over 6,000 ng/dL. At a half-life of 10-14 days, it will take at least a month or more before the HPTA even attempts to function! This will answer the question about PCT timing. There is no substitute for laboratory confirmation.

you dont need to explain further IMO - if he doesnt get it he probably wont - I agree with your administration suggestion 100% - I have never seen any better results from HCG during a cycle like often suggested and I always run mine during the test clearance time prior to starting my SERMs

 

[Cheezboyz]

Very nice response Dr.! You are completely correct regarding Total Serum Testosterone levels