MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
For those of you on thyroid medication
- Thread starter LiquidGib
- Start date
I did enough research in the beginning to realize Armour Thyroid is what I wanted and anything synthetic was sub-standard. Always been on Armour and at 3 1/2 grains now. The people I've seen do best are self treaters and most of them find they need in the 3 grain range. This page on my website shows what hormone replacement has done for me including Armour. TRT not listed.
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/How_hormones_helped_me_Chris.html
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/How_hormones_helped_me_Chris.html
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This is a vote for my wife she never felt right on any synthetic med then oneday I read that SWALE used Armour. All the Endo's that she has seen not one helped her she was always told your levels are good. I got her to see my Dr. and he put on Armour it took a long time to get the dose right but you she feels dam good on 75 mgs.
Chrisgj2 said:
I don't have much to go on, except the what I gather from my N.D.(and the M.D. that works for him) and the book, Life Extention Revolution by Philip Miller M.D. (very good book).
He suggest the optimal ranges as follows (regardless of what the suggested lab ref ranges are):
TSH: 1.0-2.0 (mine is 1.997)
FREE T3: 2.90-3.20 (mine is 2.9)
FREE T4: 1.2-1.4 (mine is 0.97)
I was not on any TRT when these labs were taken.
However, I just started HCG therapy about 3 weeks ago (daily as TRT) and it has been my experience that when on TRT my TSH changes rather dramatically to the ranges of .30-.70ish (under 1.0).
I just had another blood draw this week and should have the results on Monday to see what the specific impact HCG Therapy and DHEA supplementation has had.
Your TSH looks good, but your frees do not. Your is a perfect example of how you can't just look at the TSH alone.
What are the lab ranges? Top of the T4 and upper third for T3 is what I look for, BUT symptoms could for way more than the numbers. Numbers, even in the upper part of the ranges can't tell how you feel and what your symptom are or aren't.
I am not familiar with how HCG may affect TSH, but would be interesting to see what you frees are doing under the HCG, but I wouldn't expect much actually.
What does your doc say about your tests?
Chris
What are the lab ranges? Top of the T4 and upper third for T3 is what I look for, BUT symptoms could for way more than the numbers. Numbers, even in the upper part of the ranges can't tell how you feel and what your symptom are or aren't.
I am not familiar with how HCG may affect TSH, but would be interesting to see what you frees are doing under the HCG, but I wouldn't expect much actually.
What does your doc say about your tests?
Chris
I have done both armour and synthetic T4. Armour does work, although it sends my FT3 too high compared to my FT4 because of my body's conversion efficiency. Right now I'm on a low dose of synthroid and feel really good. Keep in mind I've been both hypo and hyper and both SUCK. If I had to pick, hyper has been worse because of the severe anxiety it had caused me. I only get hyper symptoms from excess FT3. I do notice beneficial effects from having a FT4 in the upper range such as improved skin tone/moisture, and shinier hair. I'm such a girl 
The thing is, my thyroid function wasn't that bad off to begin with. I started armour and TRT at the same time, which was probably a mistake. My baseline numbers before TRT were as follows:
TSH - 2.2(.35-5.5)
FT3 - 3.2(2.2-4.1)
Total T4 - 6.5(4.5-12)
After a few months of 1 grain of armour, my results were as follows:
TSH - .001
FT3 - 4.5
FT4 - 1.2
Total T4 - 6.5(same as before armour)
So, now I'm on 25mcg or synthroid/day. For my adrenals I was taking DHEA since my levels were low. Due to a recent acne breakout all over my back, I stopped the DHEA to determine if that was the cause. Don't know for sure yet. I did start taking maca a few days ago.
TSH - 2.2(.35-5.5)
FT3 - 3.2(2.2-4.1)
Total T4 - 6.5(4.5-12)
After a few months of 1 grain of armour, my results were as follows:
TSH - .001
FT3 - 4.5
FT4 - 1.2
Total T4 - 6.5(same as before armour)
So, now I'm on 25mcg or synthroid/day. For my adrenals I was taking DHEA since my levels were low. Due to a recent acne breakout all over my back, I stopped the DHEA to determine if that was the cause. Don't know for sure yet. I did start taking maca a few days ago.
Your first thyroid numbers overall look better than most I see, but your Total T4 is very low. Most who are hypo have total T4 are usually between 7 and 9. For total T4 I like to see at the very top of that range.
Some times Free T3 will look good and Free T4 will be low. In your case, your symptoms should have been considered. If you had no symptoms, temp and pulse were good then I wouldn't suggest treating. Your numbers suggest that you are likely at some degree of hypo though.
That just 1 grain put you into hyper, suggests to me that you are adrenal insufficient or specifically your cortisol is low. If your cortisol is good, then no way would 1 grain make you hyper. 1 grain should have put you close to your first test numbers within a month. 1 grain is good at suppressing some existing thyroid hormone production, but can make you feel better for a short time before the suppression.
So I suggest you get cortisol tests and let me see them. Cortisol should always be tested before thyroid is treated, but many docs don't do that.
In the mean time, I think you should keep with the synthroid, but 25 mcg is to small to do anything, it's a non dose. The few people who report that synthroid helped them real good were taking at least 200 mcg. In two years I've seen about 4 or 5 who reported this. Out of thousands mind you. Most people are not able to break down the T4 into enough T3, some can't convert any of it. The liver and kidney are mostly responsible for this conversion. If your liver and kidneyare not functioning optimally, then you can't covert.
How much DHEA were you taking? If your DHEA is low then VERY likely your cortisol is low. Cortisol breaks down T3. If cortisol is low, T3 can build up very quickly. Don't give up on Armour until you know what your cortisol level is.
Email me and I'll send you some valuble info about hypothyroid and how to properly treat and also links to thyroid support groups so you can get other opinions.
Chris
Some times Free T3 will look good and Free T4 will be low. In your case, your symptoms should have been considered. If you had no symptoms, temp and pulse were good then I wouldn't suggest treating. Your numbers suggest that you are likely at some degree of hypo though.
That just 1 grain put you into hyper, suggests to me that you are adrenal insufficient or specifically your cortisol is low. If your cortisol is good, then no way would 1 grain make you hyper. 1 grain should have put you close to your first test numbers within a month. 1 grain is good at suppressing some existing thyroid hormone production, but can make you feel better for a short time before the suppression.
So I suggest you get cortisol tests and let me see them. Cortisol should always be tested before thyroid is treated, but many docs don't do that.
In the mean time, I think you should keep with the synthroid, but 25 mcg is to small to do anything, it's a non dose. The few people who report that synthroid helped them real good were taking at least 200 mcg. In two years I've seen about 4 or 5 who reported this. Out of thousands mind you. Most people are not able to break down the T4 into enough T3, some can't convert any of it. The liver and kidney are mostly responsible for this conversion. If your liver and kidneyare not functioning optimally, then you can't covert.
How much DHEA were you taking? If your DHEA is low then VERY likely your cortisol is low. Cortisol breaks down T3. If cortisol is low, T3 can build up very quickly. Don't give up on Armour until you know what your cortisol level is.
Email me and I'll send you some valuble info about hypothyroid and how to properly treat and also links to thyroid support groups so you can get other opinions.
Chris
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It's interesting you think my cortisol is low as the way I have felt, I'd think it was too high. I've been on hydrocortisone before for an injury, and know what the cortisol response feels like. I'd say how I feel now is SIMILAR to how I felt when on the hydrocortisone. Can too little cortisol have similar symptoms of too much cortisol? For the DHEA, I started out at 25mg/day. I did this for about 6 weeks before my next test. My levels had not budged so I upped the DHEA to 50mg. At that point, my DHEA was probably around midpoint, but nothing spectacular. I'll be sure and get a 24h urine cortisol test and ACTH test when I go back in 4 weeks. Thanks for the help.
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get the serum test or even better the saliva test. The 24 hr is an average of the day. If your cortisol spikes at some point in the day, like many with AI do, then your 24 could look good. An adrenal stress index (saliva) tests at 4 to 6 times over a 24 hours period. At the very least get the random blood serum, but forget the 24 hour, not so good. Definately get the ACTH serum at the same time.
After I see those tests, I'll be able to tell if if looks like problem, I can recommend or not if you need the acth stim test.
Chris
After I see those tests, I'll be able to tell if if looks like problem, I can recommend or not if you need the acth stim test.
Chris
Hey Chrisgj2
Some people can't convert T4 well to T3
For those people, if they use Armour, do they use it in combination with synthetic T3 or with synthetic T4? I recall that dessicated thyroid has a ratio of 4:1 T4 to T3. I also recall that this ratio is greater than what humans usually have. I know everyone is different, but for the most part, wouldnt that mean that for those who can't convert well, they have to use it in addition to synthetic T3?
Some people can't convert T4 well to T3
For those people, if they use Armour, do they use it in combination with synthetic T3 or with synthetic T4? I recall that dessicated thyroid has a ratio of 4:1 T4 to T3. I also recall that this ratio is greater than what humans usually have. I know everyone is different, but for the most part, wouldnt that mean that for those who can't convert well, they have to use it in addition to synthetic T3?
Liquid,
The human body produces approximately 93% T4 and 7% T3. The ratio of armour is about 80% T4 and 20% T3. For those who don't convert well, armour is a great option. For those that convert well, they MAY need to add in synthetic T4. I haven' hear(yet) of anyone having to add T3 to armour.
The human body produces approximately 93% T4 and 7% T3. The ratio of armour is about 80% T4 and 20% T3. For those who don't convert well, armour is a great option. For those that convert well, they MAY need to add in synthetic T4. I haven' hear(yet) of anyone having to add T3 to armour.
you are right on that ratio, peoples ratio is about 6:1.
Some do use Armour in combination, but those (either under docs care or self treaters) don't seem to do as well as those using just Armour alone. I think since most docs aren't very good treating the thyroid this can be expected. For self treaters, I think it's just to hard to treat using both for a lay person (most don't get tests for themselves often, you can get your own tests through the internet), self treating with Armour is a chore in itself.
Since it's the T3 that makes you feel good or bad, I recommend just sticking with Armour alone. The optimum point of the free ranges I mentioned, very top of free T4 and upper third for free T3 range, well the free T3, vitals and symptoms are more important than the free T4 making it to the top of the range or staying within the range, though many people will say this is baloney. To illustrate how high T4 doesn't hurt you directly (if doesn't break down into T3), I have a member who tried to kill herself with T4 med. She took 10,000 mcg of the T4 and it did absolutely nothing to her. No hyper symptoms at all. She didn't feel a thing.
I won't say not to try combos. Most docs don't use combos, but the ones that do, most use T4 med with cytamel (T3). I have yet to see anyone that was doing as well on that combo or any other like T4 and Armour as someone on an optimzed dose of Armour alone.
Chris
Some do use Armour in combination, but those (either under docs care or self treaters) don't seem to do as well as those using just Armour alone. I think since most docs aren't very good treating the thyroid this can be expected. For self treaters, I think it's just to hard to treat using both for a lay person (most don't get tests for themselves often, you can get your own tests through the internet), self treating with Armour is a chore in itself.
Since it's the T3 that makes you feel good or bad, I recommend just sticking with Armour alone. The optimum point of the free ranges I mentioned, very top of free T4 and upper third for free T3 range, well the free T3, vitals and symptoms are more important than the free T4 making it to the top of the range or staying within the range, though many people will say this is baloney. To illustrate how high T4 doesn't hurt you directly (if doesn't break down into T3), I have a member who tried to kill herself with T4 med. She took 10,000 mcg of the T4 and it did absolutely nothing to her. No hyper symptoms at all. She didn't feel a thing.
I won't say not to try combos. Most docs don't use combos, but the ones that do, most use T4 med with cytamel (T3). I have yet to see anyone that was doing as well on that combo or any other like T4 and Armour as someone on an optimzed dose of Armour alone.
Chris
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Chrisgj2 said:
Chris, here are my most recent labs. Let me know what you think I need to do. It sounds like I need to add some Armour.
November:
Laboratory Results
Test Code Description Result Range Units
012047 A/G Ratio 2.0 1.1-2.5
001081 Albumin, Serum 5.2 3.5-5.5 g/dL
001107 Alkaline Phosphatase, Serum 87 25-150 IU/L
001545 ALT (SGPT) 45 0-55 IU/L
001123 AST (SGOT) 24 0-40 IU/L
015941 Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL
015156 Basos 0 0-3 %
001099 Bilirubin, Total 1.6 0.1-1.2 mg/dL
001040 BUN 17 5-26 mg/dL
011577 BUN/Creatinine Ratio 14 8-27
001016 Calcium, Serum 10.2 8.5-10.6 mg/dL
001578 Carbon Dioxide, Total 26 20-32 mmol/L
001206 Chloride, Serum 100 96-109 mmol/L
001065 Cholesterol, Total 205 100-199 mg/dL
012057 Comment SPRCS
004051 Cortisol 20.9 3.1-22.4 ug/dL
001370 Creatinine, Serum 1.2 0.5-1.5 mg/dL
004699 DHEA-Sulfate 224 120-520 ug/dL
500143 Dihydrotestosterone 25.0 ng/dL
015149 Eos 2 0-7 %
015933 Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL
144981 Free Testosterone(Direct) 45.8 8.7-25.1 pg/mL
001164 Free Thyroxine Index 2.1 1.2-4.9
001958 GGT 23 0-65 IU/L
012039 Globulin, Total 2.6 1.5-4.5 g/dL
001032 Glucose, Serum 96 65-99 mg/dL
011817 HDL Cholesterol 31 40-59 mg/dL
005058 Hematocrit 53.4 36.0-50.0 %
015180 Hematology Comments:
005041 Hemoglobin 17.7 12.5-17.0 g/dL
004333 Insulin, Fasting 5.7 6.0-27.0 uIU/mL
001339 Iron, Serum 149 40-155 ug/dL
001115 LDH 140 100-250 IU/L
012054 LDL Cholesterol Calc 149 0-99 mg/dL
015123 Lymphs 37 14-46 %
015917 Lymphs (Absolute) 2.4 0.7-4.5 x10E3/uL
015073 MCH 31.3 27.0-34.0 pg
015081 MCHC 33.2 32.0-36.0 g/dL
015065 MCV 94 80-98 fL
015131 Monocytes 6 4-13 %
015925 Monocytes(Absolute) 0.4 0.1-1.0 x10E3/uL
015107 Neutrophils 55 40-74 %
015909 Neutrophils (Absolute) 3.5 1.8-7.8 x10E3/uL
001024 Phosphorus, Serum 3.3 2.5-4.5 mg/dL
015172 Platelets 277 140-415 x10E3/uL
001180 Potassium, Serum 5.1 3.5-5.5 mmol/L
001073 Protein, Total, Serum 7.8 6.0-8.5 g/dL
105007 RDW 12.7 11.7-15.0 %
005033 Red Blood Cell (RBC) Count 5.66 4.10-5.60 x10E6/uL
001198 Sodium, Serum 140 135-148 mmol/L
100065 T. Chol/HDL Ratio 6.6 0.0-5.0 ratio units
001156 T3 Uptake 38 24-39 %
019745 T4,Free(Direct) 0.90 0.61-1.76 ng/dL
004227 Testosterone, Serum 902 241-827 ng/dL
006676 Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) Ab <10 0-34 IU/mL
001149 Thyroxine (T4) 5.5 4.5-12.0 ug/dL
001172 Triglycerides 127 0-149 mg/dL
010389 Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum 3.5 2.3-4.2 pg/mL
004259 TSH 0.703 0.350-5.500 uIU/mL
001057 Uric Acid, Serum 5.2 2.4-8.2 mg/dL
005025 White Blood Cell(WBC)Count 6.4 4.0-10.5
December
012047 A/G Ratio 2.3 1.1-2.5
001081 Albumin, Serum 5.1 3.5-5.5 g/dL
001107 Alkaline Phosphatase, Serum 73 25-150 IU/L
001545 ALT (SGPT) 29 0-55 IU/L
001123 AST (SGOT) 21 0-40 IU/L
015941 Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL
015156 Basos 0 0-3 %
001099 Bilirubin, Total 1.6 0.1-1.2 mg/dL
001040 BUN 22 5-26 mg/dL
011577 BUN/Creatinine Ratio 20 8-27
001016 Calcium, Serum 10.0 8.5-10.6 mg/dL
001578 Carbon Dioxide, Total 21 20-32 mmol/L
001206 Chloride, Serum 100 96-109 mmol/L
001065 Cholesterol, Total 153 100-199 mg/dL
012057 Comment SPRCS
004051 Cortisol 15.8 3.1-22.4 ug/dL
001370 Creatinine, Serum 1.1 0.5-1.5 mg/dL
004699 DHEA-Sulfate 174 120-520 ug/dL
015149 Eos 2 0-7 %
015933 Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL
004516 Estradiol 17 0-53 pg/mL
001610 Fibrinogen Activity 280 193-423 mg/dL
144981 Free Testosterone(Direct) 9.3 8.7-25.1 pg/mL
001164 Free Thyroxine Index 2.0 1.2-4.9
001958 GGT 19 0-65 IU/L
012039 Globulin, Total 2.2 1.5-4.5 g/dL
001032 Glucose, Serum 99 65-99 mg/dL
011817 HDL Cholesterol 28 40-59 mg/dL
804503 HDL Cholesterol 29 >=40 mg/dL
804497 HDL-2 (Most Protective) 7 >10 mg/dL
804496 HDL-3 (Less Protective) 22 >30 mg/dL
005058 Hematocrit 49.6 36.0-50.0 %
015180 Hematology Comments:
005041 Hemoglobin 16.8 12.5-17.0 g/dL
804509 IDL 13 <20 mg/dL
010369 Insulin-Like Growth Factor I 290 109-284 ng/mL
001339 Iron, Serum 153 40-155 ug/dL
001115 LDH 146 100-250 IU/L
804502 LDL Cholesterol 97 <130 mg/dL
012054 LDL Cholesterol Calc 100 0-99 mg/dL
804561 LDL Density Pattern A A
004284 LH 4.4 1.5-9.3 mIU/mL
804508 Lp(a) Cholesterol 4 <10 mg/dL
015123 Lymphs 35 14-46 %
015917 Lymphs (Absolute) 2.6 0.7-4.5 x10E3/uL
804581 MaxTime
804577 MaxTimeLower
804579 MaxTimeLowerGate
804578 MaxTimeUpper
804580 MaxTimeUpperGate
015073 MCH 31.8 27.0-34.0 pg
015081 MCHC 33.9 32.0-36.0 g/dL
015065 MCV 94 80-98 fL
015131 Monocytes 7 4-13 %
015925 Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 0.1-1.0 x10E3/uL
015107 Neutrophils 56 40-74 %
015909 Neutrophils (Absolute) 4.1 1.8-7.8 x10E3/uL
804568 Non HDL Chol. (LDL+VLDL) 122 <160 mg/dL
001024 Phosphorus, Serum 3.5 2.5-4.5 mg/dL
015172 Platelets 293 140-415 x10E3/uL
001180 Potassium, Serum 4.4 3.5-5.5 mmol/L
804569 Probable Metabolic Syndrome No No
010326 Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum 0.4 0.0-4.0 ng/mL
001073 Protein, Total, Serum 7.3 6.0-8.5 g/dL
105007 RDW 12.5 11.7-15.0 %
005033 Red Blood Cell (RBC) Count 5.29 4.10-5.60 x10E6/uL
804571 Remnant Lipoprot.(IDL+VLDL3) 28 <30 mg/dL
082016 Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 20 13-71 nmol/L
001198 Sodium, Serum 140 135-148 mmol/L
100065 T. Chol/HDL Ratio 5.5 0.0-5.0 ratio units
001156 T3 Uptake 38 24-39 %
019745 T4,Free(Direct) 0.97 0.61-1.76 ng/dL
004227 Testosterone, Serum 452 241-827 ng/dL
001149 Thyroxine (T4) 5.2 4.5-12.0 ug/dL
804501 Total Cholesterol 150 <200 mg/dL
804504 Total HDL Cholesterol 29 >=40 mg/dL
804576 Total VLDL Cholesterol 24.4 <30 mg/dL
804564 Total VLDL-C 25 <30 mg/dL
804563 Triglycerides 121 <150 mg/dL
001172 Triglycerides 126 0-149 mg/dL
010389 Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum 2.9 2.3-4.2 pg/mL
004259 TSH 1.997 0.350-5.500 uIU/mL
001057 Uric Acid, Serum 6.7 2.4-8.2 mg/dL
804573 VLDL1+2 (Large Buoyant) 9.4 <20 mg/dL
804562 VLDL3 (Small Remnant) 15 <10 mg/dL
005025 White Blood Cell(WBC)Count 7.4 4.0-10.5 x10E3/uL
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